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Sometimes you gotta fire the customer that might be the big name because you lose money doing business with them. People focus on top line growth, but they don't think about how profitable the business is. The internet has everyone thinking everyone's making millions and millions and millions of dollars, but the reality is the statistic is 4%. The team you build to get to that first million is not the team you're gonna have to get to the next five, 10. Probably the most important reason why companies actually don't scale, sometimes fail, is people optimize for return on ego versus return on investment. Sometimes people think about what's the worst that can happen, and really I've been focusing this year on what's the best that could happen? Welcome to The Business Game, the show that breaks business down into real levels from zero to over $50 billion so founders can see exactly where they are and what comes next. Today's guest is playing at level two, which sits in the 1 to $3 million bracket, the early builder stage. At this level, you've proven the model works. Revenue is coming in, but now you're hiring your first team, installing your first systems, and trying to stabilize delivery. The challenges? Letting go of control, managing people for the first time, and moving from chaos to consistency. The goal? Stop doing everything yourself and build a machine that runs with structure, not stress. Welcome to The Business Game. I'm Glenn Davis. Be sure to like and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening. Today, we're joined by Tamika Tyson, founder of m- and managing director of Scale, a risk-informed advisory firm helping investors and portfolio companies understand the risks that shape performance, growth, and value. She's also, also the author of Win or Win, which was a number one in multiple Amazon categories, and explores the critical questions of, for growing businesses, how to... I guess what, what it really focuses on is how to, how do you get the right people in the right roles at the right time? Um, look, Tamika, you know, for me, that's probably one of the, and, and especially at the point I'm in in business, I've got lots of businesses, um, that's probably the r-really interesting part for me, and when I looked at, uh, you coming on the show, I was like, I think, uh, I think it's probably worth a read, that book, um, and me understanding that a little bit better as well 'cause I think We could work through it live if you want. Yeah. Maybe, maybe we should. I guess, look, as a bit of a, uh, I guess kicking, kicking things off, um, you started underwriting small business loans, uh, as I understand it. Mm-hmm. Um, I guess what, what did it really teach you, that, that part of that? Well, first, thank you for having me. Um, starting out, I like to say I, I used to tell my team all the time, "I've had the worst job in the bank," right? Underwriting. I started off doing covenant testing for small businesses, which is basically after they've gotten a loan, testing to make sure they still meet the covenants that they agreed to, which basically means you spend a whole lot of time in a basement looking at financial statements and calculating ratios and saying, "Do they meet the test?" And what you learn about that is, you know, y- you see... You know, I grew up, I, at a time, I started my career before the internet. Um- And so, you know, I would... You know, whether you had a calculator and, and I don't know, this is gonna date me, but, like, ticker tape. And, and what I would find is balance sheets didn't always balance. You know, there was a lot of things in suspense. And so what you really learned is how companies functions through their financial statements from the ground up, which is really kind of a scorecard. It's a scorecard for the business. And so having done that over some time, I mean, now you can give me a couple of key metrics, and I can probably back-build you a statement and tell you how the company's performed after over the last couple of years. But I started out doing just that, like giving, you know, approving loans. Um, and then went on to and worked in energy and worked on deals that ranged in size from a couple hundred thousand to couple billion dollars. Yeah. Probably the largest deal I did was, like, a gas and infrastructure deal, and I wanna say it was about a $20 billion transaction, um, that dealt with multiple jurisdictions and countries and things of that nature, uh, and have done this both domestically and internationally. So I've supported Europe, Asia, uh, Latin America, the Middle East, uh, Africa. And so you learn a lot when you see this from different countries' perspectives, but a financial statement is a financial statement. The rules might be slightly different. So I kinda learned from the ground up- Um, and then also, you know, when you are reviewing people's financials, you start asking them questions about their business and learning about their business and learning what's working and what not, not working. Um, and so I got a lot of stories and a lot of things I've seen throughout the years. Yeah, right. So, so you talked about, like, a scorecard and, and it's interesting how you said you can, you can, like, kinda look at a business and there's a few key metrics that you can tell where it's at. Can you, can you share some of those? 'Cause that, that, that, that's how I look at the world, too, you know? Uh, you know, I used to say, um, people love to talk about net income, but cash is how you pay the bills. Yeah. That's right. And so Yeah, absolutely. You know, you, you can pay You can't pay anyone off your net income, but you do, can pay them off cash. And so I, you know, I love a cash flow statement. I think it tells you about how a business, a company is doing. It's telling you, you know, how they're financing their business. Is it internally generated? Is it exit investors? Is it debt? Um, and then you can kinda go to, from there deduce maybe what might come next. Yeah. Um, when things are working or when things are not. But, you know, I... If you give me anything, I'm gonna ask for the cash flow statement first. Yeah. And so I think it's the one thing that sometimes business owners, they, they get really focused on revenue, right? Everyone's talking about revenue, how do we get revenue, and then, then it's top-line growth, you know. And I've actually seen it. This was the... It was... I thought it was funny. It was not really great for the company. They had a chart on their website, and 'cause they had been growing, they had a little metric, little, little animation that was going up the mountain. Until the year that they didn't grow, and they didn't change it, so it fell off. Right? And so I was like, "You gotta be careful with animation." But I think people focus on top-line growth, but they don't think about how profitable the business is, and sometimes your largest customers may be large in revenue, but s- small in margins. And so really working with companies and thinking through what that is and helping them to say, "Sometimes you gotta fire the customer that might be the big name because you lose money doing business with them." Um, and but then sometimes, you know, you don't take the small ones because they just, they're more work than they need to be, and everything in the middle. Yeah. We, we work with, um... I, I mean, we get guests on that, that are everyone, founders from, you know, every level. Um, and, and you're... Like, there's a lot of people at level one, right, trying to make their first million dollars. Um, you're at, you're at level two, as I understand it, and scaling. And what, what would be... You know, that's really some good insight. Like, what would be some advice that you would give to, um, you know, that audience that's trying to make their, you know, as you know, trying to make your first million is the hardest thing to do. It, it really is a true thing, I think. People say, "Make your first million. After that, they just roll in," uh, as long as you're focused on it. But... Well, well, and if it's a non-tech business, so this is non-tech, uh, in the US, less than four, I think it's, like, 4% of all companies hit a million. Wow. So. Wow. So I think sometimes, I think the internet has everyone thinking everyone's making millions and millions and millions of dollars, but- Yeah the reality is the statistic is 4%, uh, in the US anyway. So you're right, that first million is hard. Uh, and I would say the people you have around you is v- is probably more critical then than later. Um, but where I would say most founders and business owners, they go wrong is they try to do everything themselves. And so sometimes they crash along the way. Or, uh, the question I always ask every business owner before, uh, before I consider investing is can you fire your niece? Meaning that they, the team that they have around them is their family, it's their niece- Yeah. Yeah who is, is doing the books. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, their, their son is helping on, on, on this, and they're just not doing a great job, but you love them and you, know, you wanna give them work, right? And you need some bodies. And so I think that's what makes the first million so hard is that you're trying to build something. You've got people around you sometimes that are helping, but they don't, they're not always as helpful. And then you have the outside influence of where you think you should be, how fast you think you should be going compa- uh, compared to what you maybe see on the internet or your peers or someone is telling you at, you know, dinner about how fast their company grows. And so all that gets in your head and gets in the way of you sometimes getting the business the traction that you need. Yeah. I think that's really good advice. I mean, even on the stat that you just said, right? That y- was it 4% that you said in the US of- It's, it's 4%. It's 4%. That's crazy. So 4% of businesses in the US don't break the million ARR, right? So- On a reoccurring basis, right? Yeah. Like, so, you know, sometimes they may hit it once and they never hit it again, but if you think about reoccurring- Yeah it's around 4%. Wow, that's crazy. I guess that, that just leans into what you're saying exactly that, right? If, um, if you're, you're influenced by all the things around you, that, that- Mm-hmm you know, gets in your head. Okay. Wow. So I guess for you to make it, do you... You've got a family that you've been- Yeah? What's, what's been- I love that, yes. Yeah, so what, what's... I, I'm, I'm interested just as an entrepreneur myself, and, you know, I've l- got lots of businesses, and I always talk to people about, like, business is pretty easy. The hard part is trying to balance everything at the same time, right? It's kinda like fitness. Like, fitness is really easy, or saving money is easy. It's like, how do you do it all while you're trying to live and while you're trying to raise a family? And, like, that's the hard part of running a business, I believe, is like, you know, if you didn't have any distractions, then it'd probably be easy. But what, for, for you, what's been the, the cost of, you know, going out on your own, running your business, and, and, you know, what does that look like for you? Some days the cost has been my sanity. I feel you. Yeah. If you, if you really wanna know the truth, it's probably me and my mental health. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, but I think one is everyone has to be on the same page about what the goals are. Yeah. Um, so, you know, you mentioned I have a book, and one of the things that I always ask people and, and I really focus on is what am I trying to optimize for, real value or perceived value? Yeah. And, and so when you're trying to balance family, friends, work, you said fitness, right? Yeah. And even fitness, you're like, you know, "I need cardio, I need some resistance. Oh, but I need to eat some protein, and, um, and I really only wanna do one today," right? And so I think you have to make choices and know that you're not gonna get it right, and that you're gonna have imbalances along the way. And if you've got the right people around you in your family, and you've chosen right, right, you know, all that comes together, then they understand that there are gonna be ebbs and flows and times that you're not gonna be your best self, but... Or your best and highest self, and then there are other times you're gonna show up. And then as your business grows, hopefully you can bring a team with you that, that allows you to take a vacation, right, or, or take a day off. Um, and so that's, I think, the importance about growing anything, is having the right people around you to do it. Yeah. Yeah, no, I couldn't have said it better. I totally agree. Outsource everything you're, you're not good at or you just truly not wanna do. Yeah. Uh, you know, in the days of, you know, AI and, and the, you know, global, you can get someone from another country, I think it's so important to as, as soon as you can afford help, go ahead and get it. How do you talk to your clients about that? Like, so if, if that's your kind of advice and, and outlook, which I totally agree with, but how do you manage that? Like, how do you tell somebody, "Hey, look," because as, as a, as a business owner, lots of business owners believe that that's a cost. "Wow, it's gonna cost me $10,000 to hire a marketing company. Do I really wanna do that when, you know, I could do it myself?" But realistically, like, you've only got a certain amount of energy, right? So that's divided by running the business and all the other things. How do you, how do you- You know, I guess get that across to your clients and what advice do you give them? What's the timetable do you want to hit your destination? 'Cause you're right, you can actually do it yourself, right? You can, you can market, you can, you know, you can build your, your products, you can, you can do the fulfillment, you can do the accounting, you can do all the pieces, but how fast do you wanna get to that, that next level? Yeah. Um, and so, and then, you know, what's your, you know, comparative advantage, right? There are some things that only you should do, and there's probably a lot of things that you could outs- give someone else to do. And if you focus in the areas that you add the most value Then you actually will take the company somewhere a little bit further because you're not dividing your time with tasks that are important and necessary, but they're not the highest and best use of your time. Yeah. And so, so it's really about how do-- You know, and here's the... You gotta hold people accountable. So if you're gonna outsource to marketing, you need to get the return of the marketing dollars that you're spending. Yeah. Right? So you, if you, if you're gonna pay someone to do it, they should pay. You know, I always say hire a CEO. The CEO should pay, help pay for themselves- Yeah, yeah along the way. Yeah. And so you've gotta get the right, you know, partners. But if you get the right ones and you are getting the return, you should actually accelerate the growth- Yeah versus trying to do it all yourself. Yeah. And with your-- I, I guess just going back to your book, I, I'm really interested in, so Win or Win. What, what-- G- Tell me a little bit about the book and, and, you know, what people can get out of that. Well, some-- So a lot of the book has been through my years of either investing in companies, evaluating companies, or even my own, I would say, misgivings. So I like to say I've been on the one making the decisions and, and, and, and watching the bad call, or yeah, making the calls and watching what you're doing, but I've also been the one that's been the problem as well, 'cause I've been on both sides of the table. Uh, and so really it started out about why do companies, you know, why do teams fail? Y- you know, why do, why is it that only 4% of companies exceed that? And, and I so asked, you know, and then having interviewed, I've studied businesses throughout the, you know, probably the last 50, 100 years, different and cross industries, looked at businesses that I've worked with, and started noticing some patterns along the way. And it's like, first of all, why do, do teams fail? Well, one, I think most time is misalignment. They're, they're just not aligned on what the goals are. Uh, and so that's kinda the first one. I think the second one is, I like to say, they play in parallel versus in sync, meaning you got a lot of people on the team, you're wearing the same jersey, but we're really not playing for the same outcomes. Some people might be optimizing for themselves, and someone might be optimizing for the business, but we're not moving in the direction together. We're just moving forward. And then the third one, and probably the most important reason why companies actually don't scale, um, and sometimes fail, is people optimize, or like I said, for return on ego versus return on investment. And, and so that return on ego one, it gets us every time, myself included, um, where you don't ask for help when you need help because of your ego, or you keep someone around longer than you need to keep them around because you don't wanna be the bad guy. Um, or, or you go into a business venture that probably isn't, you're not the right person to be doing, but, you know, everyone else is doing it, and of course you can do it. Or, or someone is doing it and you're like, "I can be better than them." Um, I'm gonna tell you, I had a slight lane moment that I was optimizing for my ego. I know several people who've written books, and for a moment, this one person in particular, I was like, "I just gotta sell more books than he did." Yeah. And I looked. Yeah, yeah. Like, I looked the first day and I was like, "Yes. Okay, all is well," right? Um, but we all do it. Yeah, absolutely. And so as, as we're, we're growing our business, the number one question I always ask people, "Are you optimizing for invest- your return on the investment or return on your ego?" Are y- and if you think about any business decision in the moment, which one are you optimizing for? And day to day you might do both, and sometimes it might be more your ego than your ret- your investment. But I think if you start with what are you optimizing for, again, you talked about how do you know to ask for help, how do you know to engage someone else? Your ego says, "I can do it and I don't wanna pay him," but if you're optimizing for that investment, you might say, "This might be a better use of the resource." Yeah, right. And, and I guess as a, as a founder, how do you h- what, what does that look like? How do you package that? Like, is that like a scorecard of some type, or do you just read the book and say, "Hey, look, I gotta sit down every now and then and check myself"? No. N- you know, so, so I'll tell you the book is kind of brought out in three parts. So its first part we talked about why, why teams fail in the first place. Uh, second, we actually talk about the different roles, right? So there are five roles that we focus on, the founder, the CEO, the operator, the marketer, and the finance person, and then how they show up and how, what are the different combinations of each. And then the third part, that's really where it gets good to me, is where do, how do we put this all together? Because the team you build to get to that first million is not the team you're gonna have to get to the next five, 10. Yeah. Yeah. And that's hard for people as well. Like, the folks that c- start with you aren't necessarily gonna get you to the next phase. And, and so understanding where you are in your business, what the definition of winning is is different for the first million, it's different for the next 10, it's different for the next 25 to 50 million, it's different for the n- the next 100. And so understanding what you should be optimizing for at each one helps you to understand, okay, I'm doing well, I'm not doing well. Um, oh, we, we probably actually need help here. And so in that part three is really where we say, "Okay, is it a culture issue? Is it an operational issue? Is it a clarity issue?" So we really kind of break down what might be the problem, and then say, "Okay, if this is the problem, this is probably the tool you need, uh, to solve that." Yeah. Okay. I like that. That's really, really good. Yeah. And- I guess what, what, is, is the book written for startups, or is it more for just anyone on the journey? I mean, you talked about founders and CEOs, so I'm assuming the book, uh, you know, is, is scaling out. Um, but where, where's, where's the placement really sit for the, for the reader? I would say anyone from a kind of... You need to have revenue, right? Yeah. Like, you need to be making, starting to make some money, up to about 100, 150 million. So I think anywhere in the middle, and that's why I say we do break down in the book, like, okay, this is one game for this, you know, to the first million. Then there's another game after that. Yeah. And so that's really the audience that it's written for. It's also written for investors and advisors who, you know, and it's kind of some of the stories that we've all, we tell each other about founders when they're not looking. We're like, "Ugh, yeah." "Founder, I, I got 10 founders. That's the problem." Um, he can't... A- and it goes something like this, he can't get out of his own way, right? Um, and, and so, so, like, oftentimes, so one of the other concepts in the book is that how do you lead? How do you show up? Yeah. And I think that's also very important when you're thinking about your business. Some people, you say, you say you have multiple businesses. I assume, and I'm just gonna go out on a limb, um, that you're like, "Hey, we'll just do this. We'll see if it works, and then we'll move on to the next one." Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Right? Yeah. I drive my- Did I, did I, did I call it? You, you did. I drive my team crazy, yeah. Right, and so you lead with speed. Yeah. And it's interesting, if you read the book and the founder section on that, that particular archetype, there are some uncomfortable truths, and one of them is your teams might be exhausted because you're pivoting and you're also like, "Hey, we can do this, and we can change things," right? Yeah, yeah. Some founders and people lead with systems. Yeah. Right? And then some lead with mission, right? Like, what's the bro- you know, what's the vision? What's the higher purpose? I think where you have to start is knowing who you are so you can understand where you're gonna get in the way. So a s- a founder that leads with mission sometimes can take too long- Yeah because they're looking for, like, you know, it's the, it's the big vision, right? And so sometimes big vision, you just, let's just go, right? Um, people who lead with systems can get in their own way 'cause it's not perfect. Yeah. And I, I'm, that's me. I'm, I'm a systems person. But a speed person, they're like, "We're just gonna go. We're gonna, it's gonna break, and we're gonna iterate along the way," and the problem is they don't always set up enough foundation. Yeah. So they're just, they're just driving really fast. Yeah, yeah. I- And sometimes things fa- fall out the car along the way. Yeah. Look, I, I hear that and feel that. I mean, you know, you, you pegged me correctly. Um, but you know, for, for myself, exactly the same thing. Like I, I know I'm the problem, I'm the bottleneck a lot of the times, and that, and, and we've hit roadblocks, you know. Get, get to a five, five, s- $10 million business and then you realize that your systems are the thing failing you because you're pivoting all the time and, you know. It, it's a, yeah, I, it's a... I obviously need to read your book, I think. Well listen, I, I was like, I pegged it. Yeah. I was like, "Ah, I know this one." Yeah. I think this is, there's a story about you in the book. Yeah, there you go. So you should read it. Um, but also as you are, you're building out your team, don't... Delegate, don't just delegate the work, delegate the decision. Yeah. Because sometimes we delegate the work without the decision, and so you'll know that's happening is if everyone has to come to you for the final approval. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. You gotta, you gotta delegate the work and the decisions. And that actually frees up capacity for you. So I like to say, "I want you to make the decisions you get paid to make, and I'll make the decisions I get paid to make." And so sometimes, though, this is where that ego comes in. As long as you're the central point of the business, you have value. But if you're the founder, you always have value. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I, I don't, I don't... I've never had an issue with that. I've always never wanted to be the person, even sitting here, I don't really wanna be the person on the camera, you know? Like, I'm happy to own the biggest yacht in the harbor and no one knows who, who I am. But, um, you know, it, it is, it, like, no matter where you sit, I think ego gets in your way e- every time. Mm-hmm. So it's interesting that you've coined that as a phrase, uh, like ROI, right? Um, and, and, and I also think, um, I also think for anyone watching this as well, is, there's probably some true lessons within your book in understanding who you are as a founder and, and what role you play so you can get out of your own way. Um, yeah, I think that's, that's some really, really good insight. So now let's just say we're starting to build our team, right? So we are a founder, we've started, we're getting some revenue, we're starting to make some money, and we're trying to grow our business. Who is your first hire? That's always the question people typ- typically ask. Um, and I would say it'd be one of two people, depending on what's, like, the biggest pain point that you have that you do very poorly, but you do it. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Um, that might be the first one, right? So I was, uh, you know, I'm a finance person, but the first thing I outsource is, like, book, the books, the records, right? 'Cause I don't, I'm not an accountant. I'm a finance person, right? Um, and so, you know, there's a lot of frac- in this day and age, there's so many fractional people. Yeah. But then the second person I would say is you need an operator. If you are a founder and you are a go, go, go, we got this, a great opportunity, we're gonna do this, you need an operator. Yeah. So, you know, I would say the next person you need to be surrounding yourself is someone to make sure that the train leaves the station at 2:00 on Tuesday. Yeah. Um, and so you've, you've gotta b- be thinking through, now, if I'm a s- you're a speed person, so you're like, "We gotta go," you should probably hire someone that's a systems person. Absolutely. All right? Yeah. Someone who's gonna be like, you know... And know that you're going to have some tension, because you're gonna wanna go real fast, and they might slow you down, and, and the, the, the breakthrough is in the messy middle. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. I think that's hard, too. Like, uh, you know, particularly when I grew up in school as well, is school teaches you to focus on many things and, you know, your weaknesses you need to learn and you need to get better at all the other things. But then when you get into business, you realize that if you just understand what your strengths are, and then if you build on your strengths, you actually become unbeatable, and that becomes your superpower, right? So, um, I think that leans into sort of what you're saying there. Oh, yeah. So one of the thing I'm always wondering is what's your edge? So, like, what's, what is your edge? What is the one thing that really only you should be doing in your business? Yeah. If you do that, and then the next person that you hire, they do the thing that they do and that's their edge, and really they're the ones supposed to do it, it multiplies versus just add. And sometimes we don't optimize for, like, I want you to be the best version of you, right? I want you to go out and find all the great opportunities and just say, "Hey, let's do it." Yeah. And then I want someone else to say, "Okay, we're gonna make it actually work." Um, and then, you know, but then I want you at some point to hire someone that's gonna be like, "Hey, guys, what are we, what are we doing," right? Are we... Do we just have a collection of businesses or, or do these businesses fit together? And then we can optimize because of that, right? Yeah. And, and so that's when I think that's, like, the sweet spot when you got all three things working together. Um, and yeah, no, you're gonna have some tough, intimate conversations. Uh, but we're inclined to hire people like ourselves and bring people along like ourselves. Yeah. And so what happens is when something happens, you reach for the same tools. Yep. But if you have people who are optimally different than you and some- a problem happens, you'll each root re- reach for a different tool, and that's how you actually get in and solve the problems. The Business Game is proud to partner with HighLevel, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses. With CRM funnel, website, and course builders, marketing automations, email builders, and so much more, HighLevel Software will drive your customer retention and your profits through the stratosphere. And HighLevel is fully white label, which means you can brand the platform and mobile app with your logo and company colors, and then resell it to your customers for a monthly subscription. Ready to go HighLevel? Click on the link below to begin your 14-day free trial. Yeah. You know, you know, even for me, um, in business, I, I spent many years, started lots and lots of businesses, but I, I did that many times. I, I'd, I'd partner up or hire people that were very similar to me, and then I realized that I needed to partner with someone that was almost like my yin and yang, right? Al- almost like my life partner as well, is, you know, she's the polar opposite to me, which makes us work better. But in business, when I realized that, I did exactly that, in fact, what you said. I partnered up with a systems person. So in what my s- my successful business, he's a systems person, and I'm the, the, the crazy, you know, get things done fast kind of guy, right? Um, so that, yeah. And, and that's, that's served us really, really well as a business to operate like that, and we kind of stay in our own lanes because of that too. But we all naturally do it. The first thing you do is you're like, "Well, who... Well, this is, I went to school with them," or- Yeah you know, "It's my neighbor," right? This is perfect, right? My neighbor's- We both have a love of the thing. Yeah. Um, but really what we have to do is, which is why a lot of teams kind of fall apart, right? Um, and, uh, and so really what we gotta do is figure out what- As you say, as a partner, um, who, who do I need around me that's gonna give me the best version of me, challenge me in the right way, uh, and then w- but if we're doing it together, we're all kinda going a little further faster. Yeah. Absolutely. No, I love that. So w- with, I guess, with everything that you're doing, y- you know, and the world's moving really, really fast, and I'm just gonna go down the AI path for a second. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The, the elephant in the room, right? But, but for you, like, what, what does that sorta look like for your industry, and, and, and what, what are you, what are you talking to your clients about around AI right now? Oh, I love everyone's talking about... It's funny, I just published a series on my website about AI. Uh, you know, is it a bubble? Is it gonna bust? What does it look like? Uh, so I have lots of thoughts about AI. Uh, but the first question I wanna ask y- and I always ask people is, what's the problem you're trying to solve? Yeah. So everyone thinks right now, I gotta get AI, right? Like, I have to get AI. AI is here. Or like, I can, you know, I can fire all my people. I can use the tools in AI. But the, but you h- it's a business problem. What's the business problem you're trying to solve? AI is the tool- Yeah you use to solve it. It is not the solution. It is a tool. And so when we s- when we get away from the fundamental part of actually running a business is, um, you're, you're sel- solving a problem for a customer. You've got internal business problems you're trying to use, and you use technology to do so. I think you have to start with where do you, what's the tool? Yeah. Um, what's the problem we're trying to solve? And then we grab the right tool. Um, I can tell you, so I use AI every day. I've got all of them. I've got all the tools. Yeah. And I, and, and I ha- and I, I feel like they're like an airline. I, you, I like one today. I don't like it tomorrow. I think it's like that, yeah. One- Absolutely you know, one gets me really to this one place, and it's a great experience, but the other one trying to do the same, they don't do the same, the great job. Yeah. So I, I... It's kinda how I feel about them. A- what I will say is I feel like they've actually gotten worse as they've gotten smarter Right? You know, I think the early days they were trying to prove to you that you should use AI, and now they're like, "You know it should... You should use it." Now he's made it hard and complicated for you to use in the optimal way. But I do think you're gonna use AI. I think if, if it's a customer-facing th- problem, I think you need a person. If it's a process pers- um, function, I think you could use AI. But I still think you need someone along the way that's checking the work. Yeah. All right? Um, and so I think... And then you gotta figure out what's the right ratio. Uh, and then you need a contingency plan in case technology doesn't work that day. Yeah. Right? 'Cause sometimes these models go down- and if you're solely relying on the model and it's the day that's gone down, then that's a day of productivity you've lost. Yeah. And so I think it's, it's a balancing act. But it should help speed up some things, but at, but it shouldn't sacrifice thinking. Yeah. And actual d- And, but again, I think if it's public-facing now, I still think, you know, as a, as a consumer and myself, I, I don't wanna talk to a computer. You know, I'm pushing the number till I can get to a human. Yeah. So if it's public-facing, I would say have humans in there. They may be using AI to solve it behind the scenes, but humans to face, fix those problems. Yeah. And do you, do you see it as a, a good tool to help scale your business if you were talking to a, to a, you know, somebody at a level one trying to, um, run their business? Or, or do you see it as more of a risk? I actually see it as, I s- So I'm gonna say I see it as a helpful tool But one thing I want people to not do is replace thinking for themselves. Yeah. So, you know, he, i- if everybody says, um, you know, go to their local favorite el- A- AI tool and say, "I need a business that's gonna make me a million dollars- Yeah. and I don't wanna do anything," you guess what? No one's gonna make a million dollars, right? So, you know, and if the... And, and what they're gonna do is they're gonna be selling you a course. Yeah, yeah. And so that, that AI is built and, and then that's, you know, that's only gonna last for a minute. So, so you, so you... But you have to think about what are you asking it to do? Where do you need it to help make you better? How is it that... How do you c- how can you learn or improve in the area that you need to improve in, right? So I think if you use it this way, I think it's helpful. I mean, even as an advisor or, or an investor, I might not know anything about your industry, and it's a great tool to help me get up to speed really quick- Yeah about a sector. So how would I advise a business owner to use it? How do you know your customers? What's going on in your customers', um, industry right now, right? So you can have it. So one of the things I have is I have all these things triggered underneath digest. So I know all my clients, I know what's going on in all of their sectors, and if anything interesting's happened over them overnight. And so I, the next day I can say, "Hey, noticed this happened yesterday. Could I help you with that?" Yeah, yeah. Right? And so I... You can use it to reduce some of the friction of having to go hunt for things or even the other day I said, "Hey, where did I save something?" And it found it in my own drive. Now it was value add because I don't know what I was thinking when I saved the document. Where I d- I don't... Maybe you've never done that. You're like, "Why did I save this here?" Absolutely, yeah. Right? And so that's how AI is actually gonna help a business owner that has a small team or no team that's trying to scale to be more efficient, is it could actually help keep them on track. Yeah. And what are you, what are you... I guess just on the, the last sort of bit on the AI piece, what are you advising people? Like, is it, is it a tool to replace teams or is it a tool to enhance teams? Enhance. Enhance? Yeah. No, I'd, I'd agree with that. You might not, you might not need as many people. Uh, if, you know, if you have a strong teammate, person on the team, and you have it, that's a value add. If you have a, if you have several weak teammates- I, it isn't gonna necessarily make it better, right? So you still gotta, you still gotta choose wisely. Um, but if you choose wisely, and as you're building out your team, it should enhance the overall team. Now, I will say this because I- it happened recently with someone. You know, the, you know, a lot of the tools will send you an email, and so now, you know, you're getting all these emails from, from clearly chat bots. And I'm like, "If you can't write the email, I'm not gonna take the time to read the email." Right? That's right. And so- Yeah and it's clearly written from an AI, right? And so I do think we're gonna adjust how we show up- Yeah um, as we figure out how we're gonna use this technology, but I, I think it will add value, um, to people over the long term. Yeah, absolutely. With, um, with the stage or the level that you're at, you know, it's, it's interesting 'cause it sounds like, it sounds like the way you look at the world as well with, you know, different businesses at different levels. Um, it, it's very similar to how the business game sees life as well, and that's why we talk to different founders at different levels. 'Cause, you know, obviously if you're, if you're doing $100 million a year, you, you're dealing with a lot different problems than when you were trying to make your first million or, you know, doing 3 million, right? Um, what, what, I guess just as a, this is probably more for my own interests, but, you know, you've, uh, you've had lots of experience. You've, you've scaled big companies, worked up to the billions, $20 billion, billion dollar companies. What, what would you, what advice would you give to somebody listening right now if they were running their, running a business at, say, a, a, a level two, where you're at right now, or even a level one? And, and what would you say to them they need to focus on right now? Like, if, if they could do anything, any maybe three things they should focus on to, to- Keep a finger on the pulse of where they need to go, uh, and to level their business up, I mean. What, what would you sort of offer out? So first one is your customer mix. Who are your customers? What do you know about your customers? Um, how do you add value to your customers? Uh, and how can you continue to add value? And what are your customers going through? You know, I think sometimes people get one big customer, they get real excited, and then they kinda like, they're just gonna ride this customer dre- dre- retain, and then something happens, right? So you wanna understand who your, who is your customer and who could be your customer. So I would, I would start there. Um, I would also say then what are your margins? Like, have you priced your product? Have you, do you know h- the cost of running your business? I think sometimes business, uh, especially as you're growing a business, you know, they get this, you know, they priced it wrong and now they're losing money, but they, but they, they've tripled in revenue, right? So understanding the fundamental financials and margins of the business that you're in, I think is probably the second thing I would say focus on. Make sure that the math maths, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then the third, the third thing, you know, we know your customers, we understand the, the margin. Understand your own limitations. Yeah. Um, and I don't, and I don't, I don't think we think about that in that, from that framing often. Where, what, what are you just, uh, what are you, what shouldn't you be doing? You might be doing it, but what shouldn't you be doing? Like, where is it, you know, and who pays the price of the because you do it? Yeah. Yeah. Right? You earlier asked, like, how do you do it with family? Like, is your family paying the price 'cause you're doing it? Like, somebody's gonna pay the price of your limitations, um, y- but you want to see how you can minimize that. So I think also kinda knowing yourself- Yeah and knowing what you're good at and knowing your weaknesses and knowing all of those things helps you to be a better version of you, but it also helps you to know when you need to fire yourself. Yeah. So one of the things I strongly encourage people to do is sometimes you gotta fire yourself from a role. When I'm in a pure operator's role, I can do it. I'm not great. I mean, I can make it happen, and I, you know, I'm, I feel like through s- pure will I can make something happen, but it's not the b- highest and best use of my time or my talents. I tell the team, "Your job is to manage me." Yeah. "Tell me where I'm supposed to go and what I'm supposed to do." And I would, I can follow instructions, but knowing your own weaknesses Um, is probably important. And then also being, you know, w- willing to ask for help. Not, I'm not gonna lie, not great at it, and I think most founders aren't great at it either, especially people who, especially people who lead with speed. 'Cause you'll just figure it out, right? Oh, yeah, that's me. Well, maybe if you ask the, maybe if you ask someone, they could tell you. You didn't have to have the expensive lesson. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I, I think those would be the three things. Understanding your customers, their problems, what, you know, what they're going so you really can think about different ways to add value. Understanding the m- the margins of the business that you're in. Are you pricing your product the right way? Have you thought about your costs? Making sure you're covering all your costs. And then the third is understanding your limitations. Yeah, I like that. I like that. And for, for you, Tamika, like, is there, has there been a moment in your c- like, an, an outstanding moment in your career or moments that have really shaped, um, the person that you are today in your career, th- that you could highlight? Uh, oh yeah. I, but you know what? It's interesting. So one would be, is about asking for help. Yeah. Um, you know, I, when I, early on when I was st- kinda starting with my first business, I... Someone, I was actually going back and forth to New York, and so if you've ever been to New York, it is very expensive. Yeah, it is. Uh, and when, and when you are a founder, you're, you know, you go, when you leave corporate America where you have, like, guaranteed, you know, you like, you know you're gonna get money- Yeah, yeah to like, "Hey, I might not get paid for three months." So, so that dollar, I need to hold on to it longer. You need a four or $500 hotel night, you're like, "Oh, that's expensive." Yeah, yeah. Uh, and so someone at, you know, offered to like, "Hey, I got, you know, I got a kind of place there. Feel free to stay there." And it was kind of like, that in itself was like, oh, learning to ask for help and accept the help has been huge because it now allows me the freedom to go and say, "Hey, I, I got a problem. I've got other people like me. Can you help me solve it?" Uh, I think the other thing that's been... Uh, probably the biggest thing is just taking the risk of starting a business in the first place. Um, and 'cause there's learnings regardless of what happens. If, if your first business fails, it's fine. You know, it happens. Um, there's learnings in that. So I think the biggest thing for me is just jumping into the ocean, um, you know, having that first moment that you're disoriented when the water splashes in your face, but taking... getting off, you know, getting off the sideline, jumping in the water, taking the risk, I think is the big moment for most, most founders, uh, who don't, who don't become founders when they're 20, right? When it's easy when you're 20, you become a founder, you, you don't really have as much maybe to lose. Um, but as you, you know, you do start building a family and all of that, it isn't just you. And so you... it's sometimes harder to take that risk, and I think taking the risk and, and the learnings along the way and failing and failing fast and, um, the resilience that comes for that, that helps makes you better the next time, I think that's probably the biggest thing that I would say the big moments in my life. Yeah. No, I like that. And i- if, um, I guess if, if you knew something now that you wish somebody had a told you before you started it all, what would that, what would that one thing be? Ugh. Just get started. Yeah. And it does, and it, and it doesn't ha- See, I'm not a speed person like you. All right? I'm a pr- I'm a systems person. I would say it, I would have started sooner. Yeah. Right? I would have, I would have just jumped in the ocean, um, a long time ago. So I would say if, if I knew what I knew now- Fail, fail fast, get back up, try it again. Uh, um, know that, you know, you'll, you'll find the, the right space, your sweet spot along... I think, like, even when you work for someone else in your career, you'll find that right thing. What I would say is figure out where you are the best version of you and you add the most value. So what do I mean? Some people are great at a startup. They like the messiness. They like all of the figuring it out. The company gets to a certain size, and they are no longer great because now they have processes and systems and bureaucracy and infr- and they don't like all that. It's, that's not what the fun piece was. Then there are some people who work at big companies, and they do great, and then they try to go into a startup, and they don't do well with the, the chaos and the, you know, we're figuring it out as we're building the train. So I wouldn't c- I would say I encourage people to figure out where you are the best and where you, where you function the best, where you add the most value. It might be you add the most value for a company that's 25 to $50 million that's in a growth mode, right? But knowing that means that as you evaluate opportunities or you think about businesses, you can look for that because that's where you're the best version of you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also important. I really like that. I think, I think that's, um, I think that really rings true, you know, that, that I, I see that happen a lot. People that have been with companies a long time leave, start their own company, and then find themselves in the chaos of starting a company. You know, like I, I am a, I am the, the, the kind of person to start something fast. If I see an idea, hear an idea, I, I'm on it. It's just no one else can keep up with me, which is unfortunate, you know? And I still feel like I'm going too slow. But, um- But people find that really chaotic, you know? But for me, that's comforting. But yeah, I, I think that's really, really good advice for somebody to understand where they, where they sit and, and, you know, who you are. And I, I guess that comes back to the, the ego part, getting, getting out of, out of your own way for your own ego, right? Yes. And so the book is called Win or Win, and I always say there's two wins. There's the win you get as the individual, because you know where you're supposed to be, you know your role, you know the position you should be playing, and you know what game you play the best, right? Um, so that's the first one. The second win is for the business, because it grows, it scales, it has all the right pieces it needs at the time it needs it, and it's nimble enough to transition. And so you win as the individual, but the business wins as well as it grows and goes to the place it needs to be. Yeah. Yeah. No, I like that. So we're, we're, we're getting towards the end, Tamika. I- we've got a section that we call Quick Fire, which is, um, just questions where you kinda answer in a sentence or less if you can. Um- Okay not everybody can stick to that, so I... and I'm, I'm no good at the rules either, so I totally understand if it goes over. Uh- Mm-hmm so I'll fire off some of these, uh, questions for you. So with a business, would you build or buy? I would buy. Revenue or profit? I think you might have answered that one. Profit. Growth or stability? Depends on the season of life. Yeah, I agree. Um, if your children are young, stability. If your children are out of the house, growth. Um, if you're starting a family, stability. If you're single, growth. So I think it just depends on where you are in life. Hire fast or hire slow? Hire slow, fire fast. Yeah. Uh, take the money, so get investment, or keep control? Depends on the business. Yeah. If it is a s- if it is a business, so, you know, es- especially the type of money, so if it's VC money, if it's not disruptive technology or high growth, don't take the money. Um, if it's, if you are a good lifestyle business, you make, you know, a couple million dollars, you got your boat, your car, you're good, then use your own money. Um, I think you ke- but you have to think on what the business is. Yeah. This might ring, uh, might lane a little bit similar. Bootstrapped or venture-backed? Bootstrapped. Yeah. Uh, big idea or great execution? Great execution. Yeah. Uh, perfect product or first to market? First to market. And I, I, I've kind of already asked you this one, but what's one piece of advice you wish someone would've told you 10 years ago? Uh, just go. Yeah, just go. If one piece of advice, just go. Just go. Again, you know, when I, I remember when I left my, a corporate job, someone asked like, "Oh, you know, you, you left stability to, for naught." And I said, "What's the..." So my theme for the year is what's the best that can happen? Yeah. I like that. Um, I think sometimes people think about what's the worst that can happen, and really I've been focusing this year on what's the best that could happen. Um, so yeah. Totally changes the mindset, doesn't it? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, uh, what's one business mistake you'd happily make again? Oh, a business mistake I would... Um- Taking chances on things that, that I didn't know a lot about, right? I think you sometimes, like I remember one investment I did, I would have never invested in it, and, and somebody, they really encouraged me, and I looked at it, and it was a right, it was the right call. I didn't think I was ready, um, but I did it anyway, and it was the right call. So I would just say, I think it goes back to, as the system person here who likes process and systems and structure, uh, that the thing is, as someone said, just get started. It doesn't gotta be perfect. You can iterate along the way. Get the website up. Just start going. Love it. Love it. And final question, Tamika Tyson, if business truly is a game, what's your definition of winning? Winning on my terms. Winning on my terms, and leaving when, leaving... I wanna retire. I don't wanna be retired. Love it. But you always, you know, you think about a player- Yeah that gets asked to leave. I wanna leave before they ask me to go, so. I love that. Thank you so much for your time, Tamika. Um, I guess just the last thing, where can people find you and, and Scale Online? Winorwinplaybook.com, and so you can learn about the book there. It'll take you to kind of my personal page, so it's winorwinplaybook.com. Love it. Thanks so much. If, uh, if you've enjoyed the episode, make sure to subscribe to The Business Game, and check out the playlist, uh, for the levels of the business you're currently playing at, 'cause every founder is somewhere on the game board. Thanks again, Tamika. It was great to chat with you, and, uh, good luck in the future. All right. Thank you.