0:00

What am I even doing? Like, is this my life? I sit in a cube and I'm here when the sun is down, and I leave when the sun is down. I was doing high-level accounting, but I felt like there was no impact in the work I was doing. That's something we see across pretty much every agency, is just the gross margin is not 50 cents, it's 30 to 40 cents, and it's really hard to create a profitable service business like this on a 30 to 40% gross margin. When my son was born, that was really the push. What am I teaching my son by half going for a goal here? You gotta learn by doing. It's one thing for me to say like, "Oh yeah, you just build a good team." It's another to say like, "I have to be the one to drive the culture and the values and bring good people around." Believe in yourself and go for it. Get in the game and swing Welcome to The Business Game, the show that breaks business down into real levels from zero to over $50 billion so founders can see exactly where they are and what comes next. Today's guest is playing at level one, which sits in the zero to $1 million bracket, the founder startup and survival stage. At this level, you're proving the model works. You're validating demand, refining positioning, and fighting for consistent revenue. The challenges? Doing almost everything yourself, hiring your first team member, and stepping from practitioner into CEO. The goal? Turn expertise into traction and build momentum that's repeatable, not accidental Welcome to The Business Game. I'm Steve Plummer. And I'm Collina Stener. Be sure to like and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening. Today we're joined by Ryan Page, founder of Backpocket CPA, where he helps digital marketing agencies build financial operating systems that replace gut decisions with data and margin-driven strategy. With a background in Big Four accounting and Fortune 500 finance, Ryan helps six and seven-figure agencies build stronger financial systems through bookkeeping, forecasting, KPIs, and fractional CFO support. He's also passionate about gross margin over vanity revenue, helping founders understand not just how much they make, but how much they actually keep Today, we're diving into Ryan's journey from corporate accounting to entrepreneurship, the lessons behind walking away from a major client, and how founders can build businesses that are financially healthy and less dependent on them. Let's dive in with Ryan Page. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us on The Business Game. Thanks for having me. Super excited to be here. All right. Fantastic. So Ryan, Back Pocket CPA is currently playing at level one, and that's that startup survival stage with revenue between zero and a million dollars. Um, and this is where the founder is still deeply involved in the business and focused on proving that their model works. So Ryan, at this point, how are you measuring success? Uh, at this point, I mean, honestly, I've got a little exec, uh, scorecard that I run myself through. Um, and the, the big things on there are, um, I do s- still look at monthly recurring revenue, MRR, um, keep an eye on my gross margin, uh, there, cash on hand, you know, some of the basic, like, revenue-related things. Um, I keep an eye on, uh, proposals in pipeline, um, so kind of trying to see how long things are lasting there. Uh, and then on the, like, outreach and marketing side, I do a little bit more about, like, uh, community engagement. So I, I have a KPI for, like, community engagement and trying to basically see, um, make sure I'm, I'm doing the work on the front end, uh, 'cause I've noticed a lot of them are just back-end KPIs. Uh, and then, like, one-on-one networking, um, I have that as a KPI, number of podcasts that I s- get scheduled per week. So, um, I'm trying to shift more towards, like, front-end input-related KPIs versus, like, revenue. Like, there's not much I can do, uh, for, for that, but I still wanna be able to see it. Yeah. Cool. That's great. Yeah. Um, just, can you give us an example for our listeners since, um, entrepreneurs who might be at the same stage, what is community engagement? What do you mean by that? Give us some examples. So I'm in a handful of Slack communities that are marketing agency related, and so basically just trying to comment on, uh, relevant posts or... and basically just kind of show my face. Not necessarily like, "Hey, look at me, I can do bookkeeping," but just sort of like, uh, providing input into, like, ops or something, or if there's finance questions, like, providing input. Um, so that, yeah, that's, that's what I consider that. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's, uh, dive into your story then because it's, it's quite a change, right? Yeah. You, you've gone from, you traded your, your Big Four accounting and your Fortune 500 work and background to build Back Pocket CPA for digital agencies. So take us back to that decision. What was happening in your life at the time? When did you realize that was the right path to take, and the corporate path wasn't? I think I probably... So I graduated- Uh, from grad school in 2016, and I think I realized it in 2017. Uh, but I just didn't, I didn't have the... I, I, I didn't go for it, honestly. I kind of was half in, half out for a, a long time. Um, so when I was at Big 4, I would say I, I sort of just, I mean, go through the phase of like, what am I even doing? Like, is this my life? I sit in a cube and I'm here when the sun is down, and I leave when the sun is down. Like, it was a interesting time, uh, just learning how to, like, work, I guess. Um, but super grateful for that experience looking back. Um, I think is a, a, a foundation that, I mean, is, is irreplaceable. Um, and then Fortune 500 is, uh, I mean, it's, it's similar deal 'cause you're working with a lot of Big 4 people that transition out, so it's kind of similar high-level accounting. Uh, but what I started to realize there was I, I was just didn't enjoy... I was doing high-level accounting, but I felt like there was no impact in the work I would, I was doing. Um, so it's like, oh, we're... I had this conversation with the boss. It was like exactly this, and it was, uh The, oh yeah, the, the investors are relying on the financial statements we're putting together. I'm like, "Yeah, that's crap. Like, no one's looking at these." Um, so it just felt like the work was not doing anything. And so yeah, that, that really was, I guess, manifested during that period. Um, and then yeah, now I, I feel like the work I do has a, a major impact. We're helping people keep their finances organized. We're helping them understand situations that they could never understand. And, um, so I feel a lot of, uh, passion in that. In that transition, did you push that feeling away for a period of time and just ignore it? And, and you know that, "Oh, no, it's okay, I can put up with this," you know, because- Mm, yeah you know, one, one, one school of thought is are you crazy going from the security of Fortune 500 type accounting, right, to the insecurity of entrepreneurship, right? And, and so it's a really interesting phase that people go through. Did you push it aside and try and ignore it, and did you just keep coming back? How did that work for you? I had a side business pretty much the whole time, but it would just be like, like I started an agency with a friend. Um, we s- that was-- I did that for like a year, but I was studying for the CPA exam, so I was kinda half in, half out on that too. Um, started a, a Christmas installa- Christmas light installation business, um, that we were, I was kind of doing too. Uh, and then accounting. I d- I did my V1 of, of Back Pocket CPA was called, uh, Balance Millennial Financial. It was, it's obviously a mouthful, but it was, uh... Like, I was doing tax prep and just whatever people were asking me to do, and I, I quickly realized, like, tax prep's a no-go for me, so we don't, we don't do any type of tax prep anymore. But, so it's sort of just been an iterative thing to get to what is now Back Pocket CPA. And I think part two of maybe what you said is security of a day job. I almost think that's like a false security, um, now. Because I, it, a- as I was doing Backpocket CPA and had my, had my day job, I started to feel like I had more risk in my day job income. It's like, "Am I gonna get fired?" Like, uh, and then all my income's gone, versus like I have a handful of clients now and my income's spread across all of them. So it's, I feel more secure in that than, uh, the, the job. Yeah. Yeah. It's a false security a lot. That's right. I really like that you said that. Yeah. 'Cause it, uh, you know, it is, right? Yeah. Yeah. And along this journey, you also had kids, correct? I did. I imagine that would've been a huge turning point. I'm a, I'm a mum. I mean, Steve's a father as well. I've got, I'm in the, in the trenches of, you know, young, young kids, and so I, I totally can resonate with that. So how did becoming a father change the way that you thought about risk, entrepreneurship, and what were you willing to go after? I mean, that completely changed the game. So yeah, I have young kids too, three and one, um, and we have one on the way. Oh, congrats. So- You're crazy. Yeah. Another full. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I guess it, it flipped it from, like, me half doing it and not really having, like, the motivation. I guess you could say, to what I just said, the security was maybe, like, uh, being able to build more of a foundation. Um, so I think that was a good part of the day job. But yeah, the income aspect of it was, was not secure. It didn't feel secure. Um, but yeah, having, uh, my, when my son was born, that was really the push. Um, it was what am I, what am I teaching my son by half, half going for a goal here? Um- And so that was like really what pushed me, and I was driving far for work, and I was like, "This is... I'm just wasting time. Like, I don't even enjoy what I'm doing. I'm, I'm teaching my son, like, 'Hey, you go for your goals, but I'm gonna just kind of sit over here and not do that.'" Like, so yeah. Oh, that's powerful. How- Let it out brave. Yeah. Yeah. I don't wanna make this a conversation about, um, risk and, and all those sorts of things, but one of the things you do talk about is- is, is concentration risk. Um, you've lived through that. You know, you, you had a client that res- represented a significant portion of your revenue, and ultimately you made the decision to walk away. So what was the emotional and financial reality of that decision? And long term, was it a, a net positive? Long term net positive. I will say this was, uh, it is something I'm still navigating. Um, so it was, what? Two months ago or so, um, th- that I decided to walk away from, from that project. Um, but I mean, net positive. One of the KPIs I, I didn't mention that I should have is, um, owner time and delivery, and that was something that was just creeping up and up the more I was with that project. And then obviously now I'm off that, I've got 10 to 15 hours a week that I'm able to focus more on, on Backpocket CPA and the things that I've deemed are more important. Yeah. Yeah. B- because it's, it's an interesting one, isn't it? That that's a, a decision or those sorts of decisions a lot of founders- Mm in that, you know, level one have to make, right? Yeah. Because you're figuring out what is working for you, so. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Most found- founders don't realize that they have a concentration problem until it's too late. So when you're looking at an agency's books, what are the early warning signs, um, that you tell that they're dangerously dependent on one or two clients? It's once... I mean, I'm gonna say once their books are clean and you're able to see the amount of revenue associated with a specific client. Mm. But I think subconsciously maybe they know. They have a feeling like, "Oh, this, I have one big client," or Uh, that's probably... They, they subconsciously know. If they're going out of scope for a lot of the deliverables, um, I'd say that's a good way to know, when you're like, "Oh, I, I guess I'll do this because, like, I need the money." Um- And that kind of circles back to y- the story of how you sort of realized that, you know, it's risky just being with one, right? You were- you felt the risk of just being, and so you went, "Okay, I need to diversify here, and if I have more clients, I can spread that across," which is what you said earlier, right? Yeah. So that's similar. Yeah. So Ryan, you, you specialize with, uh, in marketing agencies and doing their, their, their books for, as a generalized term. So what does an onboarding process look like- Mm for a client? So we run our back pocket operating system. Um, and it's basically starts with us going in and doing a quick assessment just to s- to, all right, what is the whole picture here? Like, how bad is, how bad is the mess? What do we need to do to clean up? If it's not a bad mess, like, we still will redesign the financial statements. Um, so it's usually starts with cleaning up the books, um, redesigning the financial statements, so then we can start to look at them in a way that, um, they have drivers of the business, labor and benefits, advertising and marketing, general and admin, travel and entertainment. Um, they're all looked at as a percent of income, and I'm gonna say 99, maybe 100% of, uh, agencies don't look at their financials in a consolidated way like that. Um, so we pretty much are always doing that, and then we are m- managing their books weekly, so they're always updated. Anyone sh- basically believe anyone at any point in time should be able to use the financials to make decisions. Um, and so that's why we manage the books weekly, and then on top of that, now that they're clean and managed, we could build a forecast, uh, to start looking forward and, and forecasting and making sure we're hitting the margin. If we're not hitting the margin, what needs to change? Then it gets into either pricing or cutting costs, and then we start to take that a step deeper into client-level profitability. Um, and that was something I thought about when you asked me about concentration risk, is like getting into client-level profitability. Um, but I think a lot of people maybe don't, don't start there. I noticed, I think it's on one of your website, or on your website, that y- there's a, a phrase there, I'm just trying to recall it, but it's something along the lines of, "You're happy to post on social media, but you get nervous about opening QuickBooks." Or, or, or a version, or a version of that. Is that prevalent in the- Yeah in what you see? Yeah. Um, for our ICP, um, I call her Social Media Sally. She i- she loves, she manages social media for a living. Uh, content agency, they- They get major dopamine rush from, uh, social media and yeah, they, they look at their books and they immediately feel anxious. Why do you think that is for people though? I mean, what is, is it a lack of financial literacy? That's a good question. Um, you know, I, um, 'cause I think that's pretty common. Yeah. It's, we've called it the financial intimidation gap. Um, so yeah, it's a function of financial literacy, but then they just, it gets so built up in their head, and it just is like something that is so hard to trudge through. And then you open QuickBooks and it's like, "I don't know what all these buttons do," or, "I don't know the back end of, of everything." So it just starts to become like an overwhelming mess. And then we're in level one of business, we're doing all these things, like that's just another thing to throw on the list Uh, teal Typically, does, how long does it take for you to, or turnaround's probably the, the wrong word, but how long does it, would it typically take you to help a business get their financial house in order? 'Cause it's not gonna be a quick fix, right, necessarily. Yeah. Um, we're, we're at, we basically consider it, like, our 90-day onboarding plan is, like, your books will be clean, you'll, uh, they'll be managed, and we'll have a forecast in place in 90 days. Um, it's, it's a function of where we're at in the year and how far back we have to clean. Like right now, if I had to clean nine months of, of a y- of a year, it's, like, a lot more work than if someone comes to me in January and I, and they, everything's been updated through, uh, the end of the prior year or something. Yep. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Mm. And how are you sort of delivering your, what it is that you're offering, um, to onboard clients? So giving them some sort of reassurance that you're d- going to be offering something different. What is, how does that conversation play out for you, bringing on new clients? Well, what we say we, makes us unique is, is that operating system we run. So it's our back pocket operating system. It's the fact that we're touching their books every week and they feel like they actually have a partner. Um, and we do month-to-month billing because if we suck, then find someone better. Um, and I want them to, to know that, like, they have that freedom. Yeah, right. It's the proof is in the pudding, then. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So you're particularly passionate about gross margin over revenue, and I wanna dig into that a little bit more. Yeah. So why do you think so many founders, especially agency owners, stay obsessed with that top line revenue, um, even when the margins underneath are quietly killing the business? Mm. I think it's easy to be... It's sort of, it's we're all hung up on, like, price when, I don't know, even level 1 to 10 is, is talking about top line revenue, uh, as a, as a, as a phase of business. So there is, like, a right place for it. Uh, but they- Just ignore the e- everything that goes into it. Um, it- what it actually costs to service, let's say, that dollar of income. Um, it's, it's starts to become more abstract too, like the mental math things. You know, it's easy to just be like, "Oh yeah, I, I charge 10K a month, and like, I think I make enough. I pay $30 here, $20 there, like per hour for this person. Like, I think I'm making money." Yes. It looks good when it comes in. I don't know what's going out though, sort of thing. Yeah. And I, I think that's a big mis- Yeah misconception for a lot of founders, early stage particularly. You don't actually realize how much goes out in terms of subscriptions and all the things you're signing up to, and it's the little, it's the little bite-sized things that really kill you, right? I know that was something I experienced. I did not think about how much money was going out, and then I went, "Oh, shoot." And the b- Yeah the book person says, "Oh, so you've got X set aside for tax." I'm, I'm sorry, what? Yeah, yeah. But my accountant was rubbish, so I could've used you. So that's ultimately why we try to simplify it into, like, the five, five expense drivers, like I was saying. Like, a lot of people get carried away in the detail of like, oh, I need to have an account for like Facebook and Google and, uh, all these different, let's say, all these different software subscriptions. But like, who cares if you're spending $1,000 on, like Showit or like ran- a bunch of random apps? Like 1,000 as a percentage of income is, is nothing. So like, we need to bury that into something, into more similar expenses to be able to like bubble it up. So instead of saying like, "I have an account for all these different softwares," it's like, "I have an account for all my software," and then I look at my software as a percent of income and then that is, is a better metric to be able to be like, "Oh, this is getting out of control." Yeah. Ryan, for, I, I'd love to dive into that just a little bit more for people who are listening and like, "Oh, look, I, I think we're doing okay." Can you take us through, uh, a practical or a real example without naming names? Okay. With- without naming names, but what was a particularly, I guess, bad situation that looked okay on the surface, but when you got behind the, lifted the dashboard or the, you know, the, the bonnet of the car, so to speak, that it was actually in serious trouble? What were the things that showed up that other people might go, "Ooh, that sounds a bit like me," or, "Ooh, that, I relate to that"? I think it relates to, like, almost every project we see, honestly, is that agencies don't, they don't look at their delivery labor as, uh, uh, as related to margin. So if you, if you're not keeping track of your margin and that, like, fundamental equation is off, then the business is gonna be out of whack. Um, so basically making sure that, like a dollar earned, if you earn $1, it should cost 50 cents to service that dollar, and that should be the, the constant equation across the every dollar that you earn. And if it's not, then either you have a problem with pricing or you're over-servicing, or you have, like, uh, y- your scope's messed up. So basically I think the, that's something we see across pretty much every agency is just the, uh, gross margin is not 50 cents, it's 30 to 40 cents, and it's really hard to create a profitable business, a profitable service business like this, um, on a 30 to 40% gross margin. So when you're installing the financial operating system f- for a founder, what does it actually mean in practice? For someone who's outside the space, can you s- simplify it for us and just explain that a little bit? More for us Yeah, maybe I need to do a better job at this. So I appreciate the question, too. Uh, so I kind of think of it a little bit how I explained it earlier. Um, it's a four-step process. Starts with go- it starts with, they're all Fs. So it starts with going in and finding what's wrong, then we fix what's wrong. Mm-hmm. From that, we're able to build out a forecast, and all of that combines to fortify the foundation, uh, of the agency. Okay. Great. So that's, and that's all- Is that- Yeah. So no, that makes sense tell me, do I need to do a better job? No. 'Cause this is helpful. Well, I think saying like, I, I love it, and saying like there's, you know, the four Fs, is that, that's memorable, right? Yes. That sticks. Yeah. So I think it's great. So, and that's all happening in the first 90 days? That, that's, that's the rollout that happens in that first 90 days? It, yeah, it depends on the level of service they want. Like, a lot of agencies don't need a forecast, um, honestly, so they'll just stop at what we call our basic, is find and fix. And then basically we'll find, we'll fix it, and then we'll start maintaining it every week, send you an overview of what's going on in your books every month That's like our basic, basic plan. And how does that sort of translate into founders making decisions? Have you had any, like- Mm feedback from your, from, um, some of your clients and how they've, it's helped shape their decision-making? Yeah. Um, on the, like find and fix kind of tier, they, what they really like is that we are sending them a video at the end of every month, um, basically pulling up the financial statements and saying like, "Here's what's going on. Here's what happened. Like this looks a little weird. You should look into this. Um, and if you continue on this trajectory, here's what I would expect your tax situation to look like." Um, that's, that's I think, um, one way it's translated, and then for those that add on the forecasting, uh, I mean, they're, they then have the ability to look forward and say like, "Okay, we, we lost this client. Like, what's the impact of that now going forward? Okay, we l- now our margin is shooting down to 28%. Like we either need to fill the pipeline or adjust our team." So then they have the ability to, um, react on a go forward. Yeah. That's great. It's getting sent a video? Yeah. 'Cause then you're not trying to schedule a call. That's probably great for you guys too. You're not having to adjust your calendar, and I mean, you can obviously coordinate that, but that's, that's really nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, can we talk about your business, Ryan, in particular? One of the, the things I noticed is that you've got team members everywhere. Yes. You've got someone in Pennsylvania, you're in Nashville, you've got someone in Spain, you've got someone in Bangladesh, someone in the Philippines. What tips have you got for, for founders and other entrepreneurs about managing people all over the globe, essentially? The honest answer is I'm still evolving here too. Um, I think it emphasizes the importance of margin because, uh, like when obviously that's, that's leverage, that's managing, managing other people, leverage consistent profitability on the team. Um, what I have been working to do i-it... I'm trying to get, build obviously a team that is owner, uh, owners. Basically one of our team values, one of our core values is be the owner, and so I want a team that's gonna drive outcomes. And so now I'm trying to, with a remote team, get them to feel empowered to drive outcomes and own their set of books, think of problems as the owner, um, not just of us, but as the owner of the books they're working on. Um, and so something we're doing, we do is we have a weekly team meeting and try to just like, um, acknowledge someone for, for how they are acting one of our values. Um, so that's something we've started to do. Uh, yeah, it's, it's an evolving thing I think, and this is like an area that I really wanna focus going forward more. The Business Game is proud to partner with HighLevel, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses. With CRM funnel, website, and course builders, marketing automations, email builders, and so much more, HighLevel Software will drive your customer retention and your profits through the stratosphere. And HighLevel is fully white label, which means you can brand the platform and mobile app with your logo and company colors, and then resell it to your customers for a monthly subscription. Ready to go HighLevel? Click on the link below to begin your 14-day free trial. Based on where you're at and, and what you've done, have you got some, I guess, some tips about hiring? What's worked well? What hasn't worked so well for you? Hiring is so interesting 'cause it's, uh- It's people, right? Yeah. Yeah Not even... It's people. It's... Yeah. It's, it's evolution, um, honestly. I think one of my... Like, my guy in Bangladesh, like I hired him in a fire alarm where I signed up for a cleanup project that I was having a really hard time with and didn't have the time to dedicate to it. And so I just got lucky, um, honestly. It was like, "Hey, yeah, you, you could do this? Sure. Here." Uh, and then since then I've tried bringing in other people in a similar fashion and yeah. So what I've, I've started to do is, like personality test, um, to see basically how they would align with the rest of the team. Um, I've been using one called Working Genius. Um, and it's basically like cogs, and it's just how will people stack in, like, in the... to make- keep the machine moving. Um, I've built a lot of, like SOPs and processes, uh, and just trying to empower the team members more to own the stuff. What do you think is one of... been one of the biggest learning lessons so far around hiring and around working with people and managing a team? 'Cause it always comes up, right? Oh, it does. Always comes- Yeah up, yes, as a challenge. Yeah. Still not good at this, is, uh, just- Eh, firing fast. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that's tough. Yeah. It's tough because you, even if someone is a good person, they, doesn't necessarily- Yeah mean that they're the right fit. And so it can be, it's a, that's a tough muscle to, um, train, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It, and it just feels like it's, yeah, disrupting someone's life, and it's like, "Oh, we can, we can work together and, like, sort of make this work." And then I just notice, um, I mean, yeah, it, it never works. So that's still something that I need to learn. Yes. Yeah. And I think we're all still practicing that. It's like the, the girlfriend or boyfriend you should've got rid of, Rohan. Yes, yes. It never gets better. Yeah, yeah. You're like, uh- Yeah this is too long. It, it, it very rarely gets better. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So Rohan, what's, what's a, I guess, a mistake as a, a founder at Level One that you've made that you learned a lot from? I wouldn't fully classify this as a mistake, I would say, but firing that client, I had the, uh, my biggest one was, um... This is great to, b- part of that story is the day after I fired that client or the week after, my second-biggest client went on pause. So it went from, like, just one client leaving to two leaving, and so it was like, um, maybe I should have sucked that up a little bit longer, was like the, the feeling. But- Yeah, it all works out I think it's just kind of earning stripes. Yeah, that's right. Um, that's a good question. What other mistakes have I made? Um, I think on the s- flip side of mistakes are also good things. So there's someone that I brought on to my team, um, that was like, "Oh, help me with, like, activating female-led communities," so, like, on the sales side. "Help me, like, review all my processes. Help me manage the team." And they were a great pers- great person. Um, did a lot for me in, like, an ownership perspective, but I think it was kind of just, like, I was trying to get someone else to, to- run my business, and it's not at a point where someone else can run it. Yeah. Yeah. Not yet. Is that the goal though? You working towards being a business owner- Right not an operator? To an extent, yeah. My goal, I mean, I, I'm doing this 'cause I wanna be able to be with my kids and help homeschool them and teach classes and stuff, and so, uh, that's like my ultimate vision. So I think part of that is like popping in and out, but I wanna have like a strong team that can make sure client delivery is all taken care of, and so that, that's, I'd say, one of my big goals. How are you managing your time at the moment? Because, I mean, we know that like- Mm managing little people is a job in itself. Close to home, Colleen. Yeah. Is that, at the moment? It's And so by trying to build that vision of like, okay, I'm also building something, and you're in startup phase. Yeah. Like, the... Which is so it's like another child, right? And you have to give it a lot of attention and love, and it's, you're developing as a person. How are you structuring your time so that you can be present as a parent, present for yourself, and then also still be focused on the business and helping it grow? Um, it's, it's fun. Sometimes I feel like a robot, uh, a little bit, but it's like I usually will get up, uh, I track my time too, so I think that is helpful in just looking back and understanding the where am I actually s- spending my time. Um, but I usually will get up at like 4:30, and I'll, I'll try to work before the kids wake up, and then I get them up at like 7:00. And I'm with them 7:00 to 8:30, and then I usually work 8:30 to 12:00. I'm with them at lunch, 12:00 to 1:00, and then I work usually 1:00 to 5:00. Then I'm with them and my wife 5:00 to 6:30 or so, and then I go to jujitsu, and then I come home and put my son to bed, and then that's it. That's my, my day. Yeah. Oh, there you go. Hey, that's a pretty good structure. Yeah. But it's always interesting to, to know how other people roll, right? Yeah. Because you, business can be lonely- Yeah and you think you're the only one who's trying to juggle all these things. Yeah. And, and hearing different perspectives is really important for- I think so, yeah for you working out what's your next step, you know- Yeah and how it works for you. And so Ryan, one of the things that, yeah, one of the things that we say is that, or we hear a lot rather, is that business is about solving problems all the time. So what's the problem that's keeping you up at night at the moment? It's having a consistent pipeline, I would say, that isn't just referrals, like- So yeah, that's what I'm really-- I'm trying to solve that, and then, I mean, our, our team, our client delivery I think is pretty solid, but I want to have more team members that are like fully bought in and like owning the process and coming to me with ideas of like, "Hey, we should do this better." Um, I think that, that's an aspect, but really the pipeline I think is the piece that is The biggest solve that needs to be had. Yeah. Yes. A- and again, very typical of early stage founders level one, right? It's- Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're pi- Yeah we're circling the topic of zooming out, so, you know, it's very important to zoom out as a founder, so focusing your time on, and, and your team and direction. So what had to change for you personally in your own business before you could actually do that, before getting buried in the work and all the stuff that comes with it? What, what did you have to do? Sounds like you've created a s- a system for yourself, going to jujitsu, so you've like, you know, you've got like a really nice structure. Was there a mindset shift that also needed to happen for you to not get buried by work? Are you still in it? Not that I can think of. Yeah. Okay. I think when, not to just keep coming back to this, but when I was working on that project, all my free thoughts and my, my... I'd wake up thinking about it, I'd go on walks and think about it, were all about that project. Um, so I think just setting boundaries around, uh, the, the type of work that we do, and not making it, like, dependent on me, um, is, is like a big time protection, I guess, or a w- a big way to, like, zoom out and just make sure that I'm not sucked into the weeds. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Well, being selective, because you're in control now, right? I think sometimes founders can get, um, caught up in this idea that, of, like, scarcity, and like, "Oh, I have to just take, you know, I just have to grit through this crappy client that's chewing up all my energy." But the reality is you don't actually have to do that, right? You can put that energy out and find other people that you wanna work with. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. I- I've got a, a question around that too, Ryan. I mean, you mentioned, we touched on it before, about y- you wanna, you're building a team that, um, that wants to own outcomes and not just do the tasks. And it, again, it's such a... Conflict's too strong a word, but it's such a point of, um, of difficulty for a lot of early stage founders in that, ah, it's just easier if I do this myself, right? Yes. It's, it's faster- I know I'll do it it's easier, it's cheaper. Yeah. You know, nah, I'll just do it myself. So for f- Mm yeah, y- you know what I'm talking about, right? So for, for- Oh, yeah yeah, for founders who are, are listening and still at that, that early stage where it does feel faster and easier to just do everything themselves, what's, what's, I guess what's a mindset shift that needs to happen before delegation is going to work? I think it's, um, like build a, build a process around it too. So, uh, I think the mindset shift, set, mindset shift is maybe just, like, letting go a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Um, not expecting, like, 100% perfection per se, and then using the opportunity to, like, better solidify the process. uh, around it. And I mean, I even encountered this like today. We're doing a cleanup and I have an idea of the chart of accounts that I wanna use for Um, this new set of books, because it's very similar to another set that we've managed, um, and my, my bookkeeper's pretty good about like, "Oh, I'll, I'll design it and, like, you approve it." And he designed one, and I- it wasn't exactly what I thought, but then I took- I said, basically made him a video, like, "Here's what I would do different," and then I went to my SOP and I basically tried to, like, redraft my SOP so that it was more clear of like, we should do this, we should do this, and then, like, kind of s- tweaking the, the process as we go. Yeah, so it's that iterative process- Mm so the team member gets better. But I guess y- by doing so, you're also getting better at letting go and develop- and, and, you know, delegating tasks. Yes. Yeah. Trying to. Yeah. Well, nothing's ever perfect, right? Yeah. No. And to, to, for your- Yeah ease, a, a lot of the people that we speak with, even business owners who are in, you know, level six, it's still a constant struggle. Yeah. It's, it's a constant thing. It's, it's constant learning. Yes. So, um, it, it, yeah. I think it just gets easier with time- Yes and challenge. Yes. Right? And practice. Uh Yeah. It's a muscle that needs to be built. It does. Yeah. You just have to keep exercising it. Yeah. So, so you're still at level one, but you're- That's a- Oh, sorry. Still at level one. I was gonna say, it almost, it's like, uh, parenting. Like your, your kids are born not doing anything, and then, like, you slowly evolve into, like, being able to handle it. And then second one comes and it's like, "Oh, this is a piece of cake." Like, uh, and yeah, uh, I mean, I can't speak for the third, but yeah. Oh, did you think the second one was a piece of cake? It's cool. Holy crap. Who are you? I was like, 'cause that, having one is a hobby. Having two is like- Yeah. Yeah. That's a more experience. Yeah. Well, I'm happy for you. How far into, how far into two are you? I've got a four-year-old and an 18-month-old, so similar. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. But yeah. Child labor. I, I think it just gets... It, it's the same thing. It's relatable to business, I think. Ev- Totally and you, Steve, you know, you've got four and- Yeah and he's been through the, you know, their, his kids- Yeah are, are older now, so. For sure. But it, every age, every phase get, is- brings its, presents its own challenges. Yes. So it's, and it- the same with business. Yeah. No matter what phase, you c- it doesn't get easier at the top. Yes. It just, there's huge, bigger problems, different, you know. Yeah. The, the problems that slash challenges- Yeah just change, right? That's right. And the solutions have to change. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And you're just ever evolving. Yeah. Yeah. Ever evolving. Yeah. So, um, you're still at level one, but you're already thinking about leverage and building foundations for the next stage, which is super exciting. Um, so what does the next 12 months for Backpocket CPA look like? Alluded to this a little earlier, but I, I would love to have the, the pipeline just more dialed in to where I, I know I can invest X in X platform, and, uh, it delivers in X days kind of thing. Um, for- That's one aspect. And then two, I would love to be able to just, um, have like someone on, else on my team who's just a, a A driver. Yeah. Yeah. Was the-- Does that person look like, uh, maybe like bringing on like as like a co-founder or like what sort of- Mm role do you see? 'Cause it's a lonely space doing it by yourself. I think it would be cool to have a co-founder. Um, but I don't know. I mean, I would-- They'd obviously have to be aligned with the, like, I'm just doing this so that I can be with my kids, and I feel like that's a hard thing for a lot of... Like, it's cool for people on the surface, but then when it's like, "Hey, I'm just gonna not work today," like, yeah. Be my, a lit- be a little harder. Um, but I think right now at least is what I think is, like, an accounting manager, someone who's able to, uh, be responsible for all the, the, the books and the bookkeeping and make sure, like, clients are happy. I think a manager can do that. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. All right. Our, um, our listeners, Ryan, they're global from levels one to 10. So w- we're asking you now to put your expert's hat on here. And so for a founder listening right now who's proud of their revenue number but doesn't actually know- Mm their margins, what's one thing you would tell them a, to do right now? Go find their margins. Uh, it's, uh, no, it's, I mean, if the books are not clean, then it's clean up the books and get to a point where you can systematically know your margins. Um, if, like I said, the cleaning of the books can take, let's say, 30 to 60 days, so kind of hard to be like, "Hey, you'll, you'll have that answer in 30 to 60 days." So, um, option two would be for a more immediate thing would be to, like... And I'm speaking for, like, a, an agency. If this is a, a, a different type of business, I think it might be harder. But an agency, list all your clients down, list the revenue right next to it, and then, um, estimate the amount of time going into each project to get to some type of estimated cost, and then just, like, back of the napkin, um, guess your margins, or back of the napkin work your way into your margins and then, yeah, you can then start tweaking from there. A, a term that you've mentioned a few times is cleaning up the books. Mm. What does that actually entail? Whenever you do a cleanup, the most important part is the balance sheet and getting the balance sheet accurate. And what that means is the balance sheet is like an accumulation, uh, over time. So what it means is reconciling the bank account to the bank statement, the credit card to the credit card statement, making sure the amount of money that you're owed, um, that you haven't been paid is, is accurate. There's, your liabilities are accurate. Um, like if you, if you owe payroll tax, yada, yada, your equity is accurate. So basically it's just making sure the balance sheet's right. Um, and then- The, the flip of that is the P&L, uh, the profit and loss, and just that's all just, like, categorization after the fact, after the P&Ls r- or the balance sheet's right. So, um, it's really just making sure the balance sheet's accurate, making sure your P&L has good structure to be able to drive decisions. Yeah. That's it. Yeah, cool. Thank you. All righty, and for the founder who's still struggling to get their business off the ground, what's the, I guess, the biggest lesson your journey has taught you about taking the leap? Uh, have kids. No, I'm just kidding. That's terrible advice. No, no, just, uh... I think I struggled a lot early on with confidence. Um, so I would say just, like, believe in yourself and go for it, and, like, evolve. You're gonna evolve, but just, like, go s- get out there and be one. Yeah. Mm. That's good advice. It really is. It's just like, just take the leap, right? Just gotta take the jump. Trust that the fabric of the universe- Yep has you. Yeah. Yeah. All righty, and we always, we want a shortcut or a cheat code- We do don't we? We always do. We always, we- most often, most, most pods we ask for a shortcut or a cheat code, so we're gonna put you on the spot here, Ryan. What is a cheat code to getting from where you started as a business owner to where you are today? Uh, there is no cheat code. It's- I knew it was coming after that last... Uh, it's, I mean, relates to the last point, I think. Just go for it. Uh, like, and take the steps, and you'll evolve. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose every mistake that you make- Yeah helps you make decisions down the line, so you don't really wanna remove those- Yeah those opportunities- That's very true to learn, right? Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't, I- it's one thing for me to look at concentration risk in someone else's business and be like, "Oh, you have a problem there." It's another thing for me to feel it and learn how to navigate it. And so, like, you, you gotta learn by doing. It's one thing for me to say like, "Oh yeah, you just build a good team." It's another to say like, "I have to be the one to drive the culture and the values and bring a good t- bring good people around and..." So it's just like get in the game and swing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and don't be afraid to get back up again, I guess, is- That's right. Just keep- is part of that a- and get back up again. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, fantastic, Ryan. Thank you for... It wasn't the answer I really wanted, but thank you- thank you for being, um, honest- Honest. Yeah a- about that cheat code thing. What did- Because- What did you want? Oh, I- No, no. That was good no, I wanted a go, go to a quick pulse and press this button or, or, or, or go to this, go to this resource and just do that thing. It was... Uh, but, but the, the honesty of that, the authenticity of, of the answer I think is real, really important, Ryan. It's important. Yeah. Because us human beings do not learn until we do something, right? Like you said, you, you, you- That's it can see it in someone else, but until you, you know, look at your own- It's different your own stuff and, and move with your own stuff, it does- nothing changes. So it, it was, it was an authentic answer, right? That is the reality of life- Yeah and business. Yeah. Mm. Yes. Mm. And on that note, I think it might be time for quick-fire questions. I think so, yes. Ryan, we like to play a little game at The Business Game. Ooh. Um, 10 rapid-fire questions, we're gonna throw them at you. Take it in turns. We ask that you answer it in a sentence or less. Are you ready? Okay. I am ready. Are you ready, Steve? I'm ready. You wanna take, take the first one? Do you want me to go? Yeah. Me first? Okay. So Ryan, build a business or buy? Build. Revenue or profit? Profit. Didn't see that. I know. I was like, "I know the answer." Growth or stability? Oof. Stability. Um, hire fast or hire slow? Um, I think hire fast. Keep the pipeline going. Take the money or keep control? Man, t- uh- Keep control Bootstrapped or venture backed? Bootstrapped. Freedom, baby. Yeah. Big idea or great execution? Big idea. Perfect product or first to market? First to market. Go out and iterate. What's one piece of advice you wish someone had given you at 25? First thing that comes to mind i- is, this isn't even good advice, but welcome to entrepreneurship. Um, I think it was something that someone said to me talking through the situation, and, uh, yeah, it just rings in my head. I don't think that's good advice though, honestly, so maybe- No, I think it's- It's real give me a second. I'll think of something better. I think it's real. No, I think it's good. It, it, it's real. Yeah. Hon- that's, yeah. It's honest. Yeah. Yeah, that's what we want. Yeah. All right, and what's one business mistake you'd happily make again? I would take this concentration risk in the whole beginning half of my year, honestly. I would I think it was, that's the negative of it, but the positive is, like, I learned a lot at that company, and I worked with some, some good people, and so, um, yeah, the financial risk of it was bad, but it was, it was worth it. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's great advice. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. All right. Thank you. All righty. So last question, Ryan. If business truly is a game, Ryan, what's your definition of winning? Living in a life that, or living in a way that makes you happy. Mm. That's a great answer. Nice. Yeah. All righty. So where can we find you and Backpocket CPA online? You can find me on LinkedIn, uh, Ryan Page, uh, or my website is backpocketcpas.com. There's an S on the end of that. All right. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And thanks for being vulnerable and sharing your story with us. I'm really excited to see where you go. We might bring you back on in 12 months- Yeah and see what you've learned. I think that'd be- See what you- really fun. Yep. Yeah. Thank you. That would be fun. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it's a big, it's a big thing that you're doing. Yeah. Going out on your own. Absolutely. Especially with a family and everything. There's a lot going on there. Yeah. So I think it's really cool. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. All right. Well, that's all we've got time for. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to The Business Game, and check out the playlist of the level of business you're currently playing. Because every founder is somewhere on the game board from zero all the way to over $50 billion. Choose your level, and we'll see you next time. Whoa.