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You can buy insurance for a lot of things. The question is, can it be affordable? Suicide is the number one cause of death of young people. 20% of college students arriving on campus today are already on prescription medicines. One in four students who started at a four-year nonprofit did not return to school the following year. We give the student and the family an opportunity to protect themselves. Technology at its best, I think, creates a public good. Sometimes there are capitalist companies that are just extractive. Some of them are predatory. It's up to us as founders and business people to demonstrate that free enterprise works, that free enterprise is one of the best way to solve and address problems, and at its best, it creates a public good that couldn't exist otherwise. Welcome to The Business Game, the show that breaks business down into real levels from zero to over fifty billion dollars so founders can see exactly where they are and what comes next. Today's guest is playing at level five, which sits in the thirty to one hundred million dollar bracket, the organizer stage. At this level, you're no longer managing individuals you're building an organization. The challenges? Hiring true executives, strengthening governance, and coordinating multiple teams at scale. The goal? Build an executive-led company that grows without relying on you. Welcome to The Business Game. I'm Kaleena Steno. I'm Steve Plummer. Be sure to like and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening. Today, we're joined by John Sies, co-founder and CEO of GradGuard, a fintech company that provides financial protection products for students and families navigating higher education. Under John's leadership, GradGuard has become a category-defining company, earning recognition alongside industry giants like Stripe and PayPal for its innovative financial infrastructure. And in this episode, we'll dive into how John has spent more than two decades becoming a serial entrepreneur, building and successfully exiting multiple companies, including businesses acquired by Viacom and JPMorgan Chase His work sits at the intersection of technology, financial services, and education, where he's built innovative solutions that solve real-world problems. So let's dive in with Jon Fees. Jon, welcome to the show. Thank you. What a nice introduction. That's, uh... I didn't write that, but maybe somebody on my team did. I, I really appreciate the, the kind words, so thank you for that. It's like we can send that to you, I think- Yes. Yeah, yeah. that, that intro. We could put on a plaque for you. I think I need to share that with my, uh, five kids and my wife. Maybe they'll believe it, so- Yeah. uh, it could be- And we might get into that too a little bit later. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, so Jon, with GradGuard, you're playing at the business game at level five, so where you've got a real executive team, performance targets, and multiple divisions pulling you in one direction. So can you tell us a little bit more about GradGuard and how it began and how it works? Yeah. So, uh, it's, it's always... The founder story is an interesting one. You know, after building the last two businesses, one was, uh, providing SAS software to universities and the other, uh, was a large student loan originations, uh, platform. Uh, what I recognized was one of the big problems facing universities and families in, in America was the high cost of college, and that it often was the second-largest investment of families' lives that was really at risk. Uh, you could protect your home, you could protect your car, you can protect your life, but when you went to spend $100,000 at Duke or $50,000 at, uh, Arizona State or any number of universities, uh, if something bad happened to a student, uh, that student often withdrew and then lost all the funds that were invested in tuition, housing, and academic fees. And so that was the problem we fell in love with because in America, not only the high cost, uh, but so many people have to borrow to pay for college. And what I also knew is that if you didn't complete college, you would likely default on the loans. Uh, in fact, 80% of student loan defaults in America are due to students who didn't complete their degree. So they borrowed for college, but they didn't get out. And when we look at the reasons why people don't graduate, they... It wasn't really academic readiness. It was much more around life got in the way. And what that meant is they had a mental health issue, they became depressed, a parent died, a parent lost their job, uh, they had a concussion, they got mono, and these were all insurable events. And so, uh, we worked with an insurance company. Uh, my company is technically more of a technology company. Uh, we're called an MGA, a managi-managing general agent, so we're not an insurance broker, but we designed the product. We found an insurance company that was willing to take the underwriting risk- Uh, and then we've been- built the technology to make certain that every student, in America at least, has the opportunity to protect their investment. Um, and so it's working. I always say we're, uh, an overnight success, it just took 15 years- uh, to sleep through it. Yeah. Uh, you know, it took a long time, uh, to really be able to, uh, realize the vision that we had to begin with. Mm. Yeah. Wow. With the, um, with the underwriting, I'm curious about that. Uh- Mm-hmm with my own personal tech startup journey, I found the underwriting process to be really challenging. Um, so how did you, did you present to a few insurance brokers- Mm-hmm or how did, how did you find that, and how did you present your, what you were putting forward? So, uh, it was interesting because I came out of the student lending business, and we had sold our last company to JPMorgan Chase. Uh, I had some credibility and some knowledge, but I also had some unique data sources, uh, that helped inform the problem. Um, now, the, in all honesty, uh, we built the hype, uh, the underwriting models. We came up with a price that the insurance companies could accept. Uh, and what we found is we were wrong. Uh- Wrong? I think our first couple years we had 90% loss rates. Yeah. And so the reality is these are insurance products that perform well, and they have to perform well. They can't have any gotchas. We work on, in a partnership model, so we work with universities directly, and you can't have a program... It's not travel insurance where it, the airline doesn't care whether or not you get back. Yeah. Uh, it's a university serving an 18-year-old or a 19-year-old who spent $50,000 and saved the last 20 years for that expense. And that family has not only a financial loss, but they have a student in distress. And so it has to work. Uh, there can't be any gotchas, uh, around it. And so we struggled with it, but we brought data to the table. And to be honest, we had really strong insurance partners, uh, who were patient with us, who helped tweak the product over time. Um, and, uh, and today, uh, the product is less expensive today than when we started, which I really feel good about it. But the fundamental change that we... I- it's an innovation of its, uh, of one sort, but traditionally in America, insurance is underwritten by school. And, uh, that's not how you would underwrite a student loan. You'd underwrite a student loan on a national basis. So our big innovation was to say the largest pool of risk is where you'll get the best pricing and the best experience. Uh, it- that's- that seems like common sense, but that's not how the industry was orientated. Today, uh, health insurance is underwritten by school. Uh, most commercial insurance is underwritten by school, and school-specific experience. Well, that's filled with a lot of friction, and it's confusing. Uh, so, uh, you know, we really wanted to simplify it, and our embedded insurance model is really what makes us a fintech. We wanted the same common features and the same pricing available to students whether or not they went to Harvard or Berkeley or UCLA or USC or Vanderbilt. Wherever you may go to school, it's the same product at the same price, and that's really one of the, the things that makes it scale much more easily. Yeah. Amazing. Hmm. John, let's talk about your, I, I guess your, your journey and how that's influenced today. So, um, you know, to, to reiterate, you, you built and sold companies to Viacom, to JPMorgan Chase, um, before you founded GradGuard. So what did those earlier exits teach you about... or what did you take from them at least to, to help you approach GradGuard differently, do you think? Well, the first two companies, we, uh, had raised venture capital money and, and that was essential, and it was 1999 and 2000. And if you had an MBA, you, and a decent idea, you could do that. Um, you know, what I learned specifically is I didn't wanna raise venture, uh, capital at that, at this point. This idea was a good one, but a lot of things, it was like playing dominoes. You had to have a lot of things that was, would go right to make this, uh, successful. And so, uh, our capital strategy was very different. And so, uh, we relied on, frankly, our insurance partners to be investor, investors to build out distribution. I, I've, uh, we now work with over 750 universities- Uh, but it took five years to probably get our first 150. Uh, and today it's a more common practice to go to a school that GradGuard works with, but it, it takes a long time, and investors are not normally patient. Uh, when you work with insurance companies and strategic investors, uh, they can be much more patient. They're not worried about the internal rate of return. They're r- they're worried about building distribution, which is costly. Um, so that would be my biggest lesson. Um, and then the second piece, in all of my businesses I've had, uh, business partners, and my-- I'm really thankful for my business partner. My first one was Australian. Uh, uh, Craig Carroll. He's a very good friend and very talented, uh, individual. I think I like being in businesses with business partners, and when we started this one, uh, I didn't know anything about insurance. Uh, but one of my former colleagues, uh, in the business we sold to, uh, JPMorgan Had a deep insurance background. And so Bill Suneson and I, uh, became partners. And, uh, Bill was really the subject matter expert. He, he understood insurance, he understood the regulations, especially in America that you have 50 state regulators, makes it much more complicated. I brought some finance and some technology expertise. Uh, and together, uh, we really made a great team. And, and I, I really think that, uh, you know, a partnership model for me is really the essential piece. Uh, and over 15 years being business partners, you go through a lot. You go through family deaths, you go through family births, you go through marriages and difficult, uh, times. Um, but when you have a partner, in my experience, that's, uh, a good complement to you, it makes the journey not only more satisfying, but also in those dark moments when you think maybe it's not gonna work, maybe we won't turn the corner, or there's bad news ahead, that partner is somebody you can turn to to say, "You know, we can do this." Uh, and, and in my case, both my partners have been that way. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. So, so just reflecting or going back to those earlier times, you know, you know, your first couple of sales, you, you said you've now got a, you know, 100-plus universities, um, on your books. When you turned up for the first couple of times, you were no-one per se, right? It's easy now that, oh, we're in X00 universities. That's almost, "Oh, well, we'll sign," kind of thing. But back, was that, was that early times, was that a real grind getting those early sales across the line, and how did you approach that? Yeah, so first of all, uh, if you're working in higher education in America, you need to be mission-oriented and mission-driven. And so I, in all my businesses, I, I worked for Arizona State University early in my career. I kind of speak higher education. I understand their values. I believe that education is transformative. I believe it's a public good, not just a private benefit. Uh, I think it's essential to the fabric of our democracy and our, uh, competitiveness as a nation. So fundamentally, when I work with schools, they, I think, can sense my deep commitment and interest in being aligned with their, uh, their goals. Uh, when we articulated our mission, uh, the problem I described, which was that college is one of the riskiest things families invest in, uh, is just one piece of it. What, uh, I was able to articulate with my business partner was that our mission is to help schools educate and protect students from the risks of college life. And that gave us a mandate to basically be aligned with them, 'cause what do schools exist for? To educate people. And so we put that front and center. And when we say educate, one of the, one of the real opportunities for schools was to operate with greater transparency, and specifically promoting financial literacy. You know, it's sou- somewhat unrealistic to think a school's gonna give your money back. Uh, we've also developed, uh, the largest renter's insurance program for college students in the country, and it's unrealistic to think that the school's gonna replace your stolen or b- ba- damaged backpack. Uh, or if you cause a fire, and there's almost 2,000 fires in dormitories and college campuses every year, uh, that the school's gonna not hold you accountable for the damage you cause. Um, and so part of what we do in w- the way we work with schools is we help them disclose their refund policies, we help them discl- close the limits of liability, and at the same time we give the student and the family an opportunity to protect themselves. So it's that combination that really is unique to our, not only our business model, but really our values. Um, and so fundamentally that works as a flywheel. So we go to the schools, we talk to them about our mission. We get schools then to give us permission to work and serve their students. Uh, and then as we get them to be customers, we pay claims. And when we pay claims, that's the real evidence that we're fulfilling our mission. Because not only are we educating them, we are protecting them, and what we really-- the big benefit to schools is it's called revenue protection, right? So schools are non-profits, but they do care about cash flow, and a student that can't pay them is a seat that they aren't gonna get back. And so, uh, one of the big measures of our success is how many students do return to school after an unfortunate event. After an unfortunate event. Yeah. Uh, if they've had to leave school, uh, due to medical reasons or any legitimate reason, uh, over 75% of the students we pay claims to return to re-enroll in school That's the measure of success. Did we help that student really fulfill their dream, which is to complete college? Um, and ultimately that everybody wins, families are happy, students are happy, the school's happy. That mission alignment is really, uh, the essential glue to the business. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I mean, I even know on my f- you know, first, that first year of university, there's a lot of change going on, and I, uh, so many people, including myself, went through, you know, mental health changes and all those sorts of things, and then the tuition that you've paid for that semester, for that year is gone to the wind, and you want... Yeah. Knowing that you've got that protection- Yeah and get that, and then you can come back. You know, I think when we first started, there was a lot of skepticism. Oh, students don't need this, right? Uh, because a lot of times students just left. They just stop out. They don't drop out. They don't, they just stop going to classes, and they lose the money. And so one of the, probably for the first decade, well, a lot of our work was to identify with schools how many students are leaving s- uh, your school, uh, not returning. And the National Student Clearinghouse, which is the primary source of data in the country, uh, they reported one in four students who started at a four-year nonprofit, this is just in 2023, did not return to school the following year. We're not talking about for-profit universities. We're talking about nonprofit institutions. And so, uh, when you peel it back further, uh, the National Clearinghouse reported 113,000 students in that same year left school for legitimate reasons, including medical reasons. And if, if you just did a modest $20,000 per student, that's $2 billion of financial losses. Uh, and that's really what we're aiming for, uh, to protect that, make certain those students get a do-over, make certain those families can repay the student loans if they've taken money. But if they've, uh, borrowed money or if they've, uh, used their investment accounts to pay for college, we want them to be able to return to school with a do-over. Uh, and it's working. Uh, but it took a long time to get, get it to work, and, you know, I'm not a real Uh, insurance expert, but I've become pretty knowledgeable about things. And one of the things that, about insurance is you can buy insurance for a lot of things. The question is, can it be affordable? And ultimately our cost of coverage is very, very affordable. It's $120 for $10,000 of coverage. Uh, that's, that's a fantastic, uh, rate in my opinion. And part of the, the low cost then attracts more people, which then gives you a better spread of risk. And that's ultimately kind of the magic in this, that it's very difficult to compete with us at this pricing without scale. Uh, you have to have... We're, we're insuring more than a half a million students today, and that scale is what gives us some real, uh, advantages and insights, especially around data that, uh, helps us, uh, c- you know, compete going forward. Okay. Looking at it, um, I was looking at the price, I'm going, "Why is this a no-brainer? It's a dinner out." Like for you know, for- Yeah it's a couple's dinner out. Why wouldn't, why would you not pay it, right? Yeah. As opposed to, you know, oh, there's another expense. Well, there's always, there's always some people that can self-insure, right? They're wealthy enough. Uh- Yeah. Yeah. But that's not me. That's not me and, uh, it's not most of my friends. Um, uh, you know, I, I really, I think it's a no-brainer. I, I, I really do. I, I wouldn't go to college without buying GradGuard. It's not just 'cause I built it, uh, and we have a talented team that's really keeps our commitments. Uh, but it's, you really don't- uh, know what's gonna happen to your freshman student. I've got two freshman, uh, entering college right now. I've got twins at the end. I got our five kids and, and, uh, you know, they're just going through a lot. Uh, they're gonna be lonely. They're gonna be homesick. They're gonna have different challenges. Uh, but it's also true that this generation of young people, especially in the US, they're, they're arriving at school in after 20 years of kind of the most clinically-minded, uh, society we've ever had. So kids frequently refer to themselves as, "I'm so anxious. I'm so depressed." Um, they use clinical terms. And then secondly, almost 20% of college students arriving on campus today are already on, uh, prescription medicines. And, uh, so they've been clinically treated for a long time, and those, uh, vulnerabilities, some of them could be Crohn's disease or, or anxiety or other things. We actually cover pre-existing conditions, right? That's one of the important pieces. It can't be a gotcha, right? But you need to, to verify that you're well enough to start school, uh, from a physician and those things. And as long as you're well enough to start school, our coverage is gonna cover these types of, uh, chronic health conditions that really have emerged with this generation very differently than when I was in school 30, uh, five years ago. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. Mm. So let's You've just talked, you've mentioned it again. The gotchas. The gotchas. The gotchas. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so- Damn insurance companies, right? With the gotchas. I think anyone- Yeah I'm actually dealing with insurance companies at the moment. And I'm like, great. This is timely then, right? But um, so a lot of the products that were already on the market were full of these gotchas, and you noticed that. So can you tell us what, you know, what that means? I think most people can pretty much understand, but what is it that you saw that everyone else, like, was missing? Yeah. And why hadn't anyone- Well- fixed it? No, I'll give you two examples. One is on our tuition insurance product. The other was on our renter's insurance program. On tuition insurance, uh, when you leave, left school, uh, there are, uh You need a verification that, uh, you're withdrawn, and you need basically some type of, uh, medical evidence from a physician, for instance, uh, or a licensed clinician, uh, to verify that, uh, you, it's in your best interest to leave school. Uh, when, uh The typical gotcha is they might require a physician. They might require a doctor. Well, it may be that the counseling department at the university who's recommending you withdraw because you're seriously depressed isn't a doctor. They might have a master's in counseling. They might have a PhD in clinical psychology like my wife, but that doesn't satisfy. That's the gotcha that we removed. So we take whatever the, uh, clinical, what acceptable clinical license in that state as a, a verifiable method to say that this is in the best interest of the student to withdraw. This is s- subtle thing, and it's one that was influenced actually by, uh, a really important foundation that we work with called the Jed Foundation. The Jed Foundation is a, uh, the largest organization in the country that, uh, works to prevent suicide of young people. Uh, suicide is the number one cause of death of young people in, in the United States younger than 25. Uh, it's a serious problem, uh, and it's, it's just so detrimental, and the Jed Foundation helped us, uh, make certain that our language didn't, uh, diminish, uh, people with mental health issues versus other physical health issues. Uh, we treat mono and, uh, concussions and Crohn's disease the same way we treat mental health issues, and, uh, that type of alignment with an organization as respected as Jed was important, but they also helped then inform kind of like, well, what is the state requirement in every state to be a physician versus a clinician? So that's just an example. Um, you know, I think the, on the renter's insurance side, it's a little bit more complex. Everybody knows what renter's insurance is. Uh, it's something that protects your property when it's stolen. It typically includes liability coverage, uh, but it, there's almost 300 different in- renter's insurance companies in the c- in America. Uh, what you'll find, though, is they almost always have restrictions that are not good for college students. So the classic restriction is an electronics limitation. So you bought a $5,000 property policy from us and $100,000 of liability coverage, but if you bought it from somebody else, there's almost always a $1,500 electronics limitation. So you bought this $5,000 policy, y- your backpack gets stolen, and if you had somebody else, they're gonna say, "Oh, we only cover $1,500 of the $3,000 of electronics in your, uh, your computer, your, uh, iPod, all the stuff that you got, you got there. We only give you 1,500 for it." Well, GradGuard, that's a gotcha. We don't want that. We cover up to the property limits. That's just an example. Another one is, uh, we take the address on file with the university for coverage. So that's really important because a classic gotcha is a student doesn't maintain their address with their insurance company A student might be asked to move from one dormitory to another across campus. Uh, we take the address on file with the university. And those two examples are really important. The third one would be that we don't require, uh, a credit check. And a credit check is detrimental to young people and young students and international students particularly. Uh, if you're relying on a credit check to price a renter's policy, that's just not the way we wanna work. We wanna give every student the e- same price at, uh, whether or not they go to UCLA or USC or, uh, you know, any number of the schools we work with. Uh, so these are simple things. Uh, and by the way, when we designed the program, uh, our school partners helped inform this. Uh, I'm... I, I wish I could take credit for all these ideas, but my business partner Bill and I, we listened carefully to what were the problems of existing renters programs and, you know, it, it's just there should be no gotchas And now, and now insurance I think has a bad reputation in lots of different markets, uh, and a mixed reputation in some places. Uh, I think one of the problems is that health insurance doesn't really act the same way that property insurance does. And tuition insurance and renter's insurance are, is property insurance. Uh, sometimes I don't think the health insurance world should even be allowed to call it insurance uh, because it feels like a discount plan and it doesn't quite feel the same, uh, value. Um, but we're really committed to, uh, making certain that students in their first large financial purchase really in families are treated well, treated the way we expect to be treated, and it's really kind of core to our values. With those gotchas, was that a, a long research process? Yeah. Because I, I guess by their very nature they're a gotcha, right? They don't have lights going, "Hey, make sure you read this little-" Yeah, yeah, yeah um, part of the policy. So was that a- across so many, I guess, markets and all those sorts of things, was that a really long and tedious process? It wasn't tedious to identify the problems, uh, of the existing policies in the market. I'll give another gotcha on a renter's insurance policy is most renter's insurance policies have a $500 deductible. Uh, that's impractical for a student, right? So the de- deductible is what they come out-of-pocket. Well, their bike's only $300. Yeah. Right? So- Yes. You know, the, there's no coverage for their bike that gets stolen, and by the way, there's lots of bikes that get stolen. We, we replace a lot of them every year. So our deductible's $100. Again, that's a gotcha that a student will feel like, "Why did I just buy this policy? I had a $500 deductible and, uh, it didn't pay for me. It didn't do, do what I needed it to do." And so, so the tedious part wasn't, uh, actually creating the policy and, um, identifying the problems for students in the student life stage. The problem was finding a willing insurance company. Uh, when we design all of these features, we add back in a low deductible and remove the electronics limitations, and, oh, by the way, we say, "We still want the same pricing." Yeah. Yeah. And that's hard. That's a hard sell. Hard. And so, uh, uh, we went to, uh, several insurance companies, and remember, knucklehead college students with 2,000 fires in dormitories, uh, you know, there are over 25,000 thefts, you know, uh, just on college campuses. Yeah, they're kind of high risk. This is all reported in national, uh, data. Yeah, yeah, it's not the lowest risk category. No. Yeah. This, this is real, right? And knucklehead college students are a little bit clueless sometimes. Yeah. They can be neglectful. The And then organized crime has figured out that, by the way, you can send a kid into a student union. They look, uh, like a student. And they just pick up a backpack when the kid went off to get a lunch, uh, and it looks like their-- it's their backpack. And these things happen. Uh, one of the universities we work with literally described our university as a mall for thieves, um, because everything in a backpack can be resold. The computer, uh, the books are $150 to $200 each. So, you know, I think they're-- I'm really thankful for our insurance partners. Uh, uh, we've worked with really great companies. Allianz is one of them. Markel is another. Uh, if everybody that we insured had a claim, we'd have to pay $2 billion of claims Uh, we don't have a balance sheet big enough, and that's why we're not a broker. We're also not an insurance company. We're this tech platform, uh, that is, uh, regulated as an insurance producer and operates as a m- uh, what's called a managing general agent. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you, you were, I guess, almost probably first to market with an embedded finance, um, product. That's right. And so is that, is that early to market, is that, um, you know, is that an advantage? Is it a curse? Is it both? And how did you navigate that? Well, we knew we, we'd wanna do for a long time, but you have to get, uh... The way the ecosystem works in, uh, higher education is you have enterprise software, uh, by very large companies, Ellucian, Workday, Oracle. Uh, there are a plat- set of platform companies that are special applications, like payment companies, software companies for enrollment and these things. And, uh, what, the way we work with schools is we sign a master service agreement with the schools that's typically a three- to five-year contract. Uh, they give us permission to integrate into their ecosystem. Uh, you have to be familiar with those ecosystems, and those ecosystems don't really wanna let you in their playb- playground, right? Yeah. Yeah. Their playground is sacrosanct. Um, and importantly, student information is highly protected and highly regulated. If you violate privacy issues of young, young people, there are serious penalties to both the university and whoever does that. And so what's interesting, most insurance companies were not prepared to do what we do, which is really have a high level of security that can d- deploy technology in this complex ecosystem. Uh, now I'm really thankful that the tech partners that we integrate with, uh, and embed with, uh, have, uh, adopted the same standards that we have, uh, and have really responded to the demand of schools for this type of integration. Uh, early on, that wasn't the case. Uh, you know, it took a long time to persuade them. Uh, but it, it's working today. Uh, and it's really frankly a couple of the large, uh, payment companies and software vendors, they shared my, uh, experience, right? They shared the experience of knowing college students who, whose lives were disrupted, whose, uh, the revenue at their schools were disrupted, and I think that they all see the value of what we're trying to do, you know? Technology at its best I think creates a public good. Uh, we don't think about, uh... Right now in capitalism, I think sometimes there are capitalist companies that are just extractive. Some of them are predatory. Uh, I think that it's up to us as founders and, and businesspeople to demonstrate that free enterprise works, that free enterprise is one of the best way to solve and address problems, and at its best it creates a public good that couldn't exist otherwise. Without... But for GradGuard, there's no other product that does what we do at scale. A- and that's the essential piece, uh, because at the scale is what makes it affordable, and that creates another public good for the, the people we protect. The Business Game is proud to partner with HighLevel, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses. With CRM funnel, website, and course builders, marketing automations, email builders, and so much more, HighLevel software will drive your customer retention and your profits through the stratosphere. And HighLevel is fully white label, which means you can brand the platform and mobile app with your logo and company colors, and then resell it to your customers for a monthly subscription. Ready to go HighLevel? Click on the link below to begin your 14-day free trial. On that journey, were there some, I guess, precarious moments where you're thinking, "Gee, are we gonna survive long enough for the market to catch up to our vision?" Did that, did that sort of thing happen, and how did you negotiate that or, or navigate that rather? Now sleepless nights, uh, sleepless nights for sure. But we ran the company with just 12 people for a long time. It's hard to build a national company with 12 people. Uh, so I traveled a lot to schools, and I, I was a, a key part of that and so was my business partner. Uh, I think the really precarious situations is that we're in a re- highly regulated market, so we at any given time can be, uh... A regulator, an insurance regulator in a state can request all of our communications with consumers and schools. Again, not everybody's prepared to, to be able to respond to that type of audit, uh, but we were, and we, we went through a couple of those. Uh, you have to, you know, you have to... If you're marketing products to young, uh, people, uh, and young adults, uh, you have to be very careful that you're not creating fear, uh, that you're literally, uh, adhering to the standards of, uh, the insurance regulations. Um, and once we, we went through a couple of those audits. I would say those were precarious because regulators can really shut you down if you're not careful. Uh, I think once we went through, uh, a couple of these audits, they realized, you know, we're really legit, and not only legitimate, we take care to protect student information. And when you look at the claims we pay and how we c- keep our commitment, you know, I think we walk away and some regulators say, "I wish I'd bought this for my own kid." Um, and that's really the test of, of our, uh, endurance, is that we really, we're sincere. Uh, you know, I, I, I wish college was not as expensive. I wish students w- uh, didn't have the he- health issues they have. I wish students weren't vulnerable to crime. Uh, but all those things are just a wish. Uh, the reality is much different, and given the cost of college, GradGuard's an essential con- consideration. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So talking about those, those realities, and I'm, I'm gonna lean on you personally here and your personal experience here, because Colleen, you remember we had a, a, a guest recently, um, Sahil Lichevan- Ah, yes. Yeah, last- who was playing- Level playing at level five as well- Yeah with, um, lots of balls in the air. He had multiple businesses in multiple time zones. Um, you know, lots of decisions to make. And, and so he was talking about the, the challenges that brings. And so, um, s- apart from sleepless nights John, um, how, how do you navigate, manage, and survive and even enjoy, um, the complexities of your big business? 'Cause it is a big business with many moving parts. Mm. Yeah. You know, first of all, I think one of the, uh, rules of my life is I try to simplify things, and I try to have a team that helps me simplify things. And so, uh, we're really not that complex of a business. It's a complex environment that we operate in, but at the end of the day, I like to say we have one price for everybody at every school. Uh, you know, it's actually we, we solved just by some business choices we made, we actually made it easier on ourselves. Um, you know, I think, uh, you know, I've been married 32 years. My wife and I, uh, she's a great-- She's my first partner in this, uh, and she's been an essential partner. She's the one that kind of picks me up when I'm down a little bit. Uh, my, my business partner certainly does as well. But my core team, uh, my CTO, my, uh, chief growth officer, my chief product officer have worked with me for 15 years. So I think having a high trust environment with people you enjoy spending time with. One of the things we, we don't talk about as business leaders often enough is that we spend a third of our life at work, right? We're all trading time for money, uh, in some ways. And, uh, what-- After I'd sold our first companies, uh, when we started this one, I was very, very committed to creating an environment with great people that I wanted to be inspired by, that would share my values and help build something that didn't otherwise exist. Uh, we had no idea if we would sell the company. We had no idea how successful it could be. Uh, but we knew what our mission was and the problem we were trying to solve, and we were committed to that. And so I'm r- I really enjoy the journey with the people we've-- I call colleagues, and I call most of them as also co- co-founders. They may not have put the first money in the business and worked for free for a few years, uh, the way my business partner and I did, but they joined me out of faith, uh, knowing that, uh, I was sincere in what we were trying to do and knowing that the problem was real. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nika All right. How did you find those good people? That was gonna... Yeah. Oh, you were gonna ask the same thing, were you? Yeah. Right, because, you know, it's people, you know, people in business rightly or wrongly complain about customers and staff, right? So Yeah. So how do you... What advice... I guess I'll rephrase that, right? Mm-hmm. What advice have you got for finding those right people who will stick with you for 15 years and, and be that, that co-founder, that- The foundation of the business really yes, that, yeah. 'Cause th- like that's almost the- You know- the nirvana for people I think the nu- number one job of a CEO and a founder is r- always be recruiting talent. And one of our... my first controller literally was a mom, uh, of another child on the soccer team we were on, and she was a CPA and looking to return to work. And I said, "You know, I'm looking for a controller. This is what we're trying to do." And she was with me for 15 years. Uh, uh, she's since retired. Um, you know, uh, one of the, the, the couple of the other key people all came through referrals that, of friends, and I think referrals are the best way to, uh, build a team. Now, the difficulty is, uh, you know, my experience is that you become very homogeneous. Uh, you became... You attract people that are like yourself. And so in our business, it's really important to look like your communities and the schools we serve. And so, uh, I think that we've tried to balance that out so that we have a variety of talent, uh, people that went to different colleges, that went to, uh, different schools and different majors, and that kind of helps you then have empathy for the customers and the schools we're trying to work with and serve. Um, now I think building the company a- as it started to scale, uh, that's how we... The attracting great people is the, the central piece, but then how do you then manage people out of the business that don't fit? Uh, that's a harder, harder question. And, well, my business partner and I, we basically had just three rules, uh, around... And, and by the way, really, really simple rules, and you kinda might laugh at 'em, but the reason we fire you and the reason we lose confidence in you is really one of three reasons. Uh, you're a bigot. There's no place for a bigot in our company. You're dishonest, uh, about small things or large things. There's no room for that. Uh, and the third one is, and we don't hire this, but, uh, you're stupid. And I know that sounds silly and, and, uh, inconsiderate to use the word stupid, but the reality is people do dumb things. Uh, you know, they have a relationship with some- a colleague, or they're inappropriate, uh, with somebody. Uh, you know, uh, you know, they could harass somebody, any number of those things. We don't hire those people. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Those are really good values to hold. And, um, I'm curious about your journey throughout not just GradGuard, but, um, the other, um, businesses that you've, you know, created and sold. Mm-hmm. What have you personally had to sacrifice? Well, you know, uh, my first company, there was a lot of difficulties, right? B- my parents are school teachers. I had no, uh, safety net really. Uh, I-- my wife's a clinical psychologist. Uh, there were times where I said, "You, you gotta keep your job 'cause we need health insurance. We got two kids." You know? Um, that, that's, that's w- who I am. Now, after we sold our companies, we had a little bit more of a safety net, uh, but we invested a lot of capital in the business as well as our time. And, and I think the sacrifice, uh, is really, uh, in my 30s, in my first company s- I think was much more around my health. I, I neglected my regular exercise and all the things you need to do. Uh, in this business I haven't neglected those things, and part of it was the way we designed the business. Uh, I have five children. Uh, that's a lot- That's a lot. uh, a lot, yeah. And I have a professional wife, uh, and so our first commitment was to our family, our second commitment was to our health, and our b- and the business is third. And, uh, I would say we were fortunate with my business partner that he aligned with those values. Uh, and so I work East Coast hours. I live in Arizona, uh, but East Coast hours means I'm up at 5:00, and I'm kind of done around 3:30 or 4:00. And that allowed me to pick up kids, uh, be home for family dinners, uh, attend sporting events. And I would say that's an advantage of working in the West Coast in, in America versus the East Coast. The East Coast, you know, you go to school, you're gonna work late, 9:00, 9:30 is kind of what a lot of the East Coast does, but they work till 6:30 or 7:00 and, and you don't get any, uh, real time with your family. And so I think part of it was designing my life around our, uh, our family's... I don't think I have a balanced life. I work hard. Uh, I think I have an integrated life, and that means I live about 10 minutes to the airport, uh, I live about 10 minutes to my kids' schools, uh, and my office is about 10 minutes away as well. And so, uh, I think if the, if you're a founder, make certain you're designing your life, uh, around, uh, the business and, uh, you know, don't do it the other way around where you're, um, you know, the business just, it ha- drives everything you do. Yes. So- Yeah, that's great advice. Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned health being a priority, so what do you do, John, to look after your health that other people can learn from, other founders can learn from? Well, uh, I've learned a lot. I, I think, uh, sleep is the most important thing you can do. Exercise is great. I mean, uh, my daughters got me into yoga about five years ago, so stretching and core strength, all that stuff. I'm not, I'm not like, uh, some model, uh, anywhere to be, uh, applauded. Uh, but one of the things I like to do, and the mountain's right behind me, uh, Arizona's a, a great hiking town. I love being outdoors. I'm not a gym rat. Um, and I really love, uh, being in my mind. I don't walk and I don't hike with, uh, you know, anything in my ears. I wanna hear nature. I wanna, uh, be fully engaged and present. I think that clearing your mind, uh, with a good night of sleep and a good, breaking a good sweat, those are two really essential things. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. It, it is a, a theme, Kalina, that we get that a lot of founders do say that their- Their place, their thing is being in nature. Yeah. Right? And- It is and, and getting away from that, that grind of the business, you know- To unplug, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's very much a common theme, yeah. Yeah, I think my dad helped inspired some of that. Uh, my, you know, my dad was a teacher and an educator and, and he, uh, he would always tell us... Uh, I was a history major in college before business school and, and, uh, he- my dad always said, "There are always those who know how working for those who know, uh, why." And he really encouraged all of my brothers and sisters to really think carefully about what's your why, what's your purpose? Um, and I think that continues to motivate you when you're building a business through hard times. Uh, I also think that why, it, it isn't just about making money, it's about enabling the life you want for your family. And, uh, you know, if you give up your family for that or you give up your health for that, uh, that sacrifice is not worth it. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So John, what's your biggest challenge in the business right now, and, and how are you approaching solutions to it? You know, I think enrollment declines in America is a, is a serious issue. I think, uh, AI is challenging the very nature of what we think of education, and I think that is a, a variable that we can't quite predict. Uh, however, uh, I am an optimist, and I'm an optimist that what I'm hopeful of is that AI will be this companion that enables, uh, people to maybe finish education in three years instead of four, reducing the cost of education, uh, to do those things. I'm also hopeful that, uh, you know, what we'll see as a result of this, uh, move away from STEM and software and all these engineering, uh, kind of principles, uh, that we're gonna get people that are pursuing liberal arts, uh, pursuing the, the design questions that we so badly need. We don't need just more, uh, engineering at the moment. We need people to design the right prompts for AI, to think carefully about how to design solutions to the biggest problems we have, because now we have this superpower in, uh, agentic AI that I think can be transformative. Now, there are, there are people that say, "Well, you're not gonna need a college degree." I, I'm not certain that's true. I, I really, uh, disbelieve that. I believe that, uh, we need people... A- as a society, we trust credentials In credential, I'm not gonna go to a dentist without a credential. I, I don't care-- I don't-- I hope it only took him three years. Um, but the cost of a medical education right now is $300,000 in America. Uh, a dental education is, uh, something close to that. I, I-- If we could reduce the cost of it, that would be my hope for AI. Uh, but I think credentials, being able to prove that you know how to do something will matter. And then I think the last piece is the human design functions, right? The human functions, how do you relate people? Right now in America, the top 10-- one of the top 10 sale, uh, jobs in, in the country are salespeople And what are salespeople? Salespeople are good storytellers. They're, uh, people that have capacity to have empathy. Uh, they're problem solvers or good communicators. You know, I, I don't think AI's gonna replace that type of human connection quickly. Maybe. There are people that say I'm gonna be wrong about that, but I think in the short term it's still gonna be really important to be a, an effective human, and that means interpersonal skills and other things, so. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I agree with that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's interesting because there seems to be a bit of a wave, I think, in America too, where there's this push to, like, anti-school almost, like bring them home. And it's a little bit interesting the timing of AI and that sort of, um, yeah, not to get into a conspiracy, but I just find it interesting. Yeah, Peter Thiel's on that. He's been on that for a while, right? You pay people to not go to college and things. Uh, I think that there, uh... You know, I think wherever you go to college, you need to be an active consumer. It's like any other consumer purchase. And not only do you need to consider protecting it, but you need to consider what value you're exchanging. You're giving your time, uh, and you're expecting not only a knowledge transfer, but really some skill development, and that skill development often comes... I mean, I've got my five kids. I've got two that have already graduated from really great schools. Uh, they learned so much more outside of the classroom than they did in the classroom, and I think that's still really valuable for young people to have a safe space to e- encounter that. Yes. And whether it be in Queensland or Sydney, uh, or Paris or London or, uh, Phoenix, Arizona, those spaces are uniquely designed as universities right now, and those spaces create, uh, moments where I think big ideas can happen. Uh, I just read a book called The, The Geography, and it's a really terrific book, and, and the, the, the central piece of it was, you know, whether it be Rome or Athens or Paris or Florence or Scotland or Palo Alto, some of the best ideas came through collaborations over a beer. Uh, in, uh, the... And even, like, when you think about chloroform. Chloroform, uh, was developed in Scotland at a pub when a farmer and, uh, somebody with some medical interests were talking about, "How do I put somebody to sleep and not kill them so that they don't suffer through their surgery?" And they were talking about it at a pub. Um, now- You know, I think that these places, these universities create those opportunities for, uh, collaborations, and I, I really believe that the superpower for the biggest problems we face, whether it be affordable water, affordable food, affordable energy, uh, these problems are big, but they require collaboration across disciplines. And those disciplines, those mashups are happening in universities. Uh, and I, I think we need to continue to consider them special places. Yes. Totally agree. That's interesting, John, because that's your story too about you and your business partner, right? Yeah. I was just thinking that. It was over, over a beer- Yeah and a bit of banter, right? We were- Yeah, yeah. That's right. And, and- That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. So you're an example. And my first company was similar. And my first company was similar. It was with an Australian, and I think we had more than one beer. Yeah. If you're Australian, that's very likely. Yeah, that's, uh... He's true to form then. Absolutely. Yes. That's good, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So John, you're a design thinker and a civic-minded entrepreneur, so two identities that don't always sit comfortably together in business. Mm. So how do you hold both? And when- Well, thank you for- Sorry that's a, I appreciate the observation, yeah. Uh, go ahead. Finish, finish your question. Oh, I was just gonna say, so, you know, when that civic responsibility and commercial, you know, imperative pull in an opposite direction, it's like how do you make that call? Where, who, who do you answer to? Well, I, I believe in stakeholder theory. Uh, and stakeholders mean that you have more than one primary, uh, you know, uh, responsibility, right? Um, uh, capitalism of, in America specifically has been, uh, the primacy of capital has ruled everything for, since the 1980s, right? And, uh, and you know, I think that that kind of infected a lot of our thinking, but we know that stakeholders include the environment, include our community, include our employees, include our, our customers. Um, and I think that capitalism, uh, at least in the United States, is really at risk of losing trust and confidence without business leaders who start to speak up about the, the balance, uh, that needs to exist among all the stakeholders. And I think it's, uh, imperative for business leaders to, to start to recognize that. Uh, and that includes private equity friends and, and bankers and other people that are in this value chain, many of whom I went to business school with, many of whom I respect and consider dear friends. But we've created a set of systems and designs that unfortunately, uh, provide greater incentives to capital than to labor, and I, I think that's a big problem. Uh, and I think we need to give voice to it. Now, the second piece in terms of my civic inve- engagement, um, you know, America is in a really troubled time. Uh, you know, I live in Arizona. Arizona's one of the five most contested states in the country. Uh, we are a relatively small state, but Phoenix is the fifth-largest metropolitan area in the country. Uh, we have a democracy that depends, in Arizona with eight million people living here, on a newspaper that only has 100,000 subscribers. I don't know how we have a democracy when, uh, you don't have common knowledge among the electorate, uh, when people are allowed to choose the facts that they want to believe the world they want. And I have a lot of friends in government and a lot of friends that believe that the real challenge for democracy, uh, is partly that people are choosing their own facts. Yeah. And so I'm really leaning in. Uh, I think the business community has an obligation to not just do pay-for-performance marketing, but, you know, the business community paid for advertising in newspapers. They made that viable as a mechanism to have an informed public. And I think that's an important consideration when we're buying advertising and promoting our companies, is to think about where we're investing. And don't invest in platforms that are promoting lies and distrust and things that we know are obviously not true. And, and I think that's hard for business people to do, especially with the tech platforms having as much power as they, they, they have today. Uh, now I can give voice to this in part because my business is a national business. I don't depend on just Arizona. I, I have a national business, so my ability to speak up loudly, uh, I, I have some agency. I think, uh, I also have an obligation as a result to, to speak the truth where we see it. Um, now the, the third thing I would say about civic engagement, uh, by b- business leaders is it doesn't have to be partisan. I'm not a partisan person. I want, uh, a respect for the rule of law. Uh, when I sign contracts with people, when I hire people, uh, when, uh, uh... I depend on our court system to enforce the laws that basically protect our intellectual property and everything in a business. And we right now have some really big confrontations where people are not respecting the rule of law, where capitalism is corrupted by a political class that's not good for our society. And I think that it doesn't matter, uh, who the party is, we should have the same standards for ethics and respect for the rule of law. And to me, this is a straightforward, this is black and white issues. But boy, the world is really gray in America at the moment, um, where I see people unwilling to speak up because they're scared of retaliation, they're scared of retaliation for their business. Um, and I, I just don't have room for that, and I think that, uh, we, we need to take this moment and think carefully about when we can speak up. And I think there is power in speaking up with, uh, colleagues and other CEOs because if we don't do it- I don't know who else will. Yeah. Yep, I totally agree with you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. In our, um, bit of change of track, John, and, and even just, uh, talking a little bit, a bit about your philosophy, we live in this instant gratification world, right? Where we've got a... We can click on a button and r- listen to a podcast, and we get this, and we, we... Everything's gotta be really, really easy. Your life is almost in, in some ways the opposite of that in that you've been building companies for over two decades, a, a dad to five kids, been married for 32 years. So you apply this long-term thinking to, to family and to, to company building. And so what does that, I guess, that longer game, what does that require of a person, and, and have we lost some of that in society and in business? Yeah, I- I'm afraid y- you're right. Um, you know, I, I, I think, uh, I'm really, really fortunate to have been raised by a family that loved me, that inspired me to, uh, to give back more, uh, than I receive, and I feel very blessed. Um, what I would say, um, w- what I would say, though, in terms of society is we are, uh, being entertained, uh, constantly, and, and one of the... There's a great book called Amusing Ourselves to Death, and in that book, there's a description of our modern society, and they talk about George Orwell in 1984 writing a book that he was worried that people, uh, the governments were gonna ban books, and we'd be burning books. And, and this was simultaneously at the same time when Huxley wrote Brave New World. And when Huxley wrote that, he was worried that we would be entertaining ourselves to death and that we would just, uh, be amusing ourselves to death. Uh, and as a result, we're just entertaining, and we wouldn't be reading books. Uh, ironically, both of those things are happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, so TikTok is basically amusing us to death, and Instagram and everything else, and so we're not reading on the one side. And then we have books being banned at the Naval Academy. 400 books were book- were banned this last year. This is wrong. That's so wrong. And I think we just have to say that that's wrong. And but here's what I think is happening, uh, is that our society, we agree more on our values, uh, than what the media says, and I believe that we, in Australia and any of the Western, uh, countries, I really believe that we have to be careful that our adversaries are driving this division. Our adversaries are using propaganda. They're using these tech platforms to promote, uh, things that are divisive because that is the single way to weaken our societies. And I think we need to take a step back and say, "When you're being agitated- that we should pause for a second and ask, "Do, do I really think my neighbors think that?" Do I really believe that? Do my brothers really, my sisters really believe that? Do the people I go to see at the grocery store, do they really believe that? Or is this being promoted by somebody who wants me to be angry, right? And I think our adversaries, uh, and I won't name them here, but I think our adversaries are very, very clever in driving this type of division, uh, in Australia, in Germany, where I just was, London I saw it, uh, and certainly in America. And I think we just take a moment to say, "Could this really be true? Do these- do we really hate one another?" Um, uh, I, I don't think it's true. I think we have m- have much more in common. Um, and by the way, we are fortunate in the US at least, and I think Australia, we, we have, uh, so many common values. We have a common history. Uh, we have so many blessings. Um, but we are distracted, and in the age of distraction, uh, we have to, I think, look for a compass that will help guide us. And I do believe business leaders, uh, especially founders who are basically having to make these design choices on a regular basis, the design choices are about values. And I think the business community, uh, this is a, this is a moment for them to step up and speak out, uh, about the values that are shaping our society and, oh, by the way, that we depend upon for our businesses to thrive. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Totally agree with that. Yeah. All right. I've, I've got a... I wanna put you on the spot a little bit here, John. If there was someone at level three, you're at level five in business, the, The Game of Business or Business Game. Mm. If someone was at level three or four wanting to get to the next level, what, based on your experience, what piece of, pieces of advice could you give them to say, "Well, you need to consider this. You need to do this." Mm. "Um, let go of that, and, you know, do that different thing to, to get to that next level." Well, I think there's, uh, in my life, uh, the biggest examples for that were mentors. I've had really good coaches in my life. Ask for help, uh, and specifically from people who've, who are maybe 5 or 10 years older than you that are, are in different industries. Uh, you know, there are YPO groups and EOS groups and the- different things. Uh, I really believe, uh, that mentorship is a, and fellowship, uh, is a really useful thing. Uh, the second thing, and this is, uh, um, you know, there are several models out there. If you're running a fast growth business like ours, uh, and you want to be in a fast growth business, you have to be very disciplined. You have to know what you're measuring, and, uh, and I don't think entrepreneurs think carefully enough about that oftentimes. And there are two, two really well-known, uh, business methods, uh, that are, are really have a lot of traction. One is the EOS method, and the other is the Scaling Up method. These protocols help entrepreneurs go from three to five. And I respect both of those. In the US they're very widely adopted. Uh, they have their own common language, uh, and I think those two things really, really help. The third thing I would say though is you have to attend to yourself, and I believe we all have a spiritual side to our lives that needs attending to. And so whether it be exercise, um, or time for yourself, uh, I think you have to have time to think. But I added another dimension. I have a coffee group I get together with, uh, uh, five other dads. We all have five kids. We started to get together during COVID, and really the unlock for me is to have somebody to share the journey with, to say, "This is hard," uh, to say when you have a child that's in distress, to be able to confide in another dad that you're scared. Um, and it- to have a fellowship group like that, men and women benefit from that because sometimes, uh, life just really gets complicated, and it's better to have some friends you can rely on, and don't neglect those friendships because your business demands more of your attention. Those friendships will be there when your business is in distress. Uh, they're the ones that you can go to, grab a beer and say, "I can't believe what I've just lived through this week." Um, and I just think that sometimes particularly men forsake that, and, uh, I- I'm sure it's true for women, but my own experience, you really have to make that a priority, and that fellowship will keep you accountable to your values. Yeah. Wow. It comes up a lot, Colleen, doesn't it? That seeking out mentors and- It's just- and so forth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really creating a community and a network- Yeah for yourself. Yeah. That- That's, yeah, great. Mm. Well, I think it might be time for quick-fire questions. Yeah. Quick-fire, that's the exciting part. Yeah. Are you ready? Yeah. Yeah, I'm ready. All right. We're gonna fire 10 quick questions at you. Try to answer in a sentence or less. Uh, Steve, do you wanna take- Oh, yep yeah, take the lead? All right, John. You ready to go? All right, Steve. Yeah. I d- I don't I talk in paragraphs, so sentences are hard. It's all right. That's okay. Well, maybe this is part of it. You mentioned personal growth in business. Maybe this is part of to keep you- This'll be my moment. There we go. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All righty. Here we go. Are you an office or work from home guy? Office What was your first job? I was setting up, uh, tables at a, uh, employee, uh, conference center. And so I got paid $3.15 an hour. I rode my bike miles for it, and I was thankful to get them. Amazing. Yeah, the princely sum of $3.15 an hour. Love it. Yeah. What's your go-to productivity hack? Oh, I still like to write, uh, my to-do list every day. Uh, I know I'm not supposed to. I'm supposed to have electronic ones, but I, I get my to-do list done every day. That's you and I, too. Yeah. There, there's something- There's something about pen to paper pen and paper, like it... I don't know, maybe it's just old-fashioned, but there is something- No, I'm not old-fashioned about pen and paper. Nope. I've... Yeah. There is something about it. Yeah. All right. Android or iPhone? iPhone. Okay. What's your coffee order? Oh, I like a cortado right now. A what? Ooh, a new coffee- A cortado. Yeah. It's just, uh... It's basically an espresso with a little bit of milk and cream. It's great. Ooh, sounds good. Yeah. Okay. People all get different things, but it's kind of a popular thing right now. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. So if you weren't doing what you're doing now, what career would you choose? Hmm. I don't know if it would be a career 'cause I'm not certain I'm that talented, but I'd love to be a sculptor. Ooh. I love to shape things. Uh, I think when I look at Rodin's sculptures, I think of Michelangelo, I think sculptures are these things that last, uh, last centuries if you do it right. Mm. What's the best investment you've ever made? Oh, my marriage. Uh, uh, absolutely. Amazing. Mm-hmm. That comes up a lot again. It does. Yeah. Yeah, we do get that one. Um, early riser or night owl? Early riser. One piece of tech you couldn't live without. Mm. Cell phone, I'm afraid. What's your book or podcast recommendation? Acquired, and yours, uh, The Business Game, right? Uh- Excellent but Acquired, if you haven't listened to Acquired, uh, I think their Costco and Disney episodes are... and then Trader Joe's, are three of my favorites. Uh- Acquired outstanding. Acquired. Okay, great. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. Awesome. Excellent. Mm. Okay. So one final question. If business truly is a game, John Faas, what is your definition of winning? Oh, winning is, uh, something that lifts all boats for all stakeholders, uh, in that, uh, we've made a difference in the lives of each of the stakeholders we've identified. And I think winning is helping each person improve their lot and creating a public good as a result. Uh, I, I'm, I'm absolutely... I think that's winning Mm. Yeah, I love that. Mm. Great. Well, where can, um, our listeners find you and your business online? I'm easy to find on, uh, LinkedIn, but go to gradguard.com, uh, and Gr- uh, Grad Guard's also on YouTube. Uh, you can see testimonials and case studies and, and, uh, you know, we want to eventually find ourselves in Australia and, and, uh, Asia. We have a lot of interest in Canada and the UK and in Europe. Uh, but I, I would think that college, wherever you go, uh, is, is actually more of a risky proposition than ever, and I think that Grad Guard, uh, uh, could be a partner there as well. But, uh, Link- LinkedIn is easy if you're interested in talking to me, I'd love to have a conversation. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Thank you so much. My, my kids are all past that, and I'm listening to John's story and going, "Damn, I wish we had that when, uh," I was thinking I've had my own personal struggles- Yeah with universities, so yeah. Yeah. It'd be, be great, um, uh- Well, if you're ever in Phoenix, if, if you're ever in Phoenix, please let me know. Uh, always, uh, welcome to, uh, see Australians here and, and, uh... But also, uh, any of your listeners, I'd be happy to meet with you. I, I, I take anybody- body's meetings. Uh, I just ask that, you know, people don't just always try to sell you something, they try to understand what y- what we're trying to do together. Yeah. Yes. Love that. Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you so much, John. Yeah. Thank you, John. All right. Yeah. Well- Thank you thanks so much for joining us. This has been such an incredible conversation. Yeah. I'm so glad we got to sit in on this, so thank you for your time. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Well, that's all we've got time for. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to The Business Game, and check out the playlist of the level of business you're currently playing. Because every founder is somewhere on the game board from zero all the way to $50 billion. Choose your level, and we'll see you next time. Whoa. This is The Business Game