0:00

People get between zero and four embryos. We got 17, which is out of control There was definitely no backup plan. Probably nothing we, we can't really do together having got through the IVF process. Everyone sort of knows the prenatal and they're very saturated in the market, they support baby, whereas ours is supporting mom to be able to fall pregnant. Failure is stopping. At the end of the day, if we aren't still going in 12 months, that's failure. Because the story is absolutely the weapon. Done is better than perfect. Welcome to The Business Game, the show that breaks business down into real levels from zero to over $50 billion, so founders can see exactly where they are and what comes next. Today's guest is playing at level one, which sits in the zero to $1 million bracket, the founder startup and survival stage. At this level, you're proving the model works. You're validating demand, refining positioning, and fighting for consistent revenue. The challenges? Doing almost everything yourself, hiring your first team member, and stepping from practitioner into CEO. The goal? Turn expertise into traction, and build momentum that's repeatable, not accidental Welcome to The Business Game. I'm Kaleena Steno. I'm Steve Plummer. Be sure to like and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening. Today, we're joined by Michael Dunn and Maddi Barnett. They're playing at level one, the startup and survival stage. They are the husband and wife founders behind Inkindle, an Australian preconception health supplement brand born from their own fertility journey. Michael is a public accountant, Maddi is a PE and health teacher, and despite having no background in health, supplements, or e-commerce, they decided to tackle a problem they discovered firsthand after years of IVF and pregnancy loss. Since launching Inkindle in 2026, they've welcomed their first 100 customers, generated their first $10,000 in revenue, secured their first retail partnership with GoVita, and are on a mission to change the conversation around preconception health. Today, they're taking us inside what it's really like to build a purpose-driven business from absolute scratch. Let's dive in with Michael Dunn and Maddi Barnett. Welcome to the show, guys. Hello. Thanks for having us. Thanks so much. We're very excited. Yeah. We're, we're looking forward to this chat, so yeah. We really are, yeah. Yeah. Thank you for joining us. Cool. Awesome. So to kick things off, can you please share with us and our listeners about what Inkindle is and how it helps people? Yeah, so Inkindle is a preconception and health support brand. Effectively, what we wanted to do was produce a, um, a supplement that was really targeted and very specific towards preconception health. Um, we went through our own very long and tough journey of IVF, and, um, through that process, yeah, we probably realized that there, there was not a lot of options or obvious options out there for, uh, for preconception health. Um, and yeah, through the journey it just became a lot more obvious that something needed to be put out there. Uh, so yeah, that's, that's the aim of Inkindle is to, is to be a, a support for, for people trying to conceive. That's incredible. I know friends personally that have had trouble with that, so yeah. Yeah. That's amazing that you're doing that. So- Hm Michael, Maddi, before we go deeper into the business parts of things, let's start with the human story. Hm. As you've mentioned, you went through IUI, IVF, and pregnancy loss before you became parents, which is such a big journey. So can you take us back to what that period of your lives actually felt like, and how it shaped the way you see everything that came after that? Yeah. So I suppose we have similar but also different perspectives. Um- I felt like a failure. Um, I felt like it was all-consuming. Um, felt like I didn't really, nobody could really say the right thing to make me feel any better. I had support from a friend that had been through it, so literally after every appointment she would message or ring to see how I was feeling. Um, and our families are supportive, don't get me wrong, but they just, they didn't understand it. Like, 'cause they've never been in that situation before. And I think the only real way you recover from it is by, I think, having a child, which obviously we are very fortunate to have from our journey. And I know there are people that, you know, don't get the same joy at the end of their IVF or their, their fertility issues. Um, so- Yeah that's kinda how I felt. And I mean, e- everyone, like, when you go through these sort of things, from my perspective, I was completely naive to the whole circumstance. You know, you go through school and all this sort of stuff, and you're taught how not to get pregnant. Uh, but then it sort of gets to this point- Yeah where, where, okay, it's time. We wanna have kids. And we had no idea, and I, I was completely naive, to be honest. Like, no idea. Yeah. It- j- yeah, just from that sense. And, um- F- it's different, like, from, from Maddie's side of view of feeling like a failure and, and all of that sort of thing throughout that process. From my perspective, it was more, uh, just complete helplessness or just uselessness because I couldn't do anything. It wasn't me that was, I guess- The issue the issue. Yeah. But at the same time, all you want to do, all I wanted to do was help and do something to, to help, but I co- I couldn't do anything, basically. It was just sort of left into the hands of the doctors and the medical process. So, um- I think we did work as a good team though. Yeah. Michael was the level-headed one. Like, I was obviously quite emotional about the situation. So his job was to make sure I had the medication I needed and I... and, yeah, help get it sorted, 'cause I was on a lot of medication for a long time really, and just comprehend what the doctor would say, 'cause they'd change, you know, once the f- once a cycle would fail, they'd just go literally straight again- Mm and they'd slightly alter the medication. Um, and we moved, ours was COVID too, so we actually moved in the middle of the IVF back here, and the medication I was getting wasn't on the PBS and it wasn't from the pharmacies down in the country. So I had to get it, um, delivered down to Warrnambool so we could, you know, have the medication I needed to conceive. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Wow. Mm. So InKindle is currently playing at level one, the startup and survival stage. Yeah. Grossing revenue from zero to a million dollars. At this point in the business, how are you measuring success? Uh, honestly, honestly, if we... Like, it's just a matter of getting sales, but- Mm like, we have a level of stock that we need to, to get through, so it's a matter of getting that out. Um, but also, as we've made a few more sales and got a few more customers and whatnot, the feedback that we're getting- Mm is probably the number one measure for us in terms of are we actually achieving what we set out to achieve. 'Cause the whole idea was to be that obvious choice or to develop something that would become the obvious choice for people- Who are trying to conceive that sort of goes beyond like prenatals are prenatals. They do their thing. Um, everyone sort of knows the prenatal and they're very saturated in the market. Um, but- And they support baby, whereas ours is supporting mom to be able to fall pregnant. Um- Yeah. I, yeah, I think the success is like the wins that like even the messages that we're getting from people that, you know, they've actually fallen pregnant already taking our, um, Inkindle s- like preconception support or even, you know, it's being linked really good with like, um, you know, period support, that kind of thing. Like, um, having a normal cycle and, you know, the period pain that comes along with it. So I suppose, yeah, that's success to me, but obviously success in a business sense is selling it and, you know, increasing, um- What- yeah, sales profitable. Yeah. I'm really interested with the, 'cause I think this is like the supplement element of that when- Mm anyone who goes into supplements, you're probably- Yeah burning for this question as well- is you're ordering- Yeah your, how, the ordering system, how, especially starting out- Mm how do you know how much to order? 'Cause obviously everything has an expiry, you need things to- Mm shift and move and you're sort of like, "Ooh." Um, how are, how did you- Yeah navigate that and how did you know what to order? Yeah, that's, yeah, that's a hard question. But we, we were told what to order anyway- Okay. All right minimum, so. It's basically, it's, y- y- you, your hands are tied to a certain degree. Like, with, with this sort of, in these sort of businesses, in supplements and whatnot, there is a minimum order quantity because, I mean, it's not commercially viable for the manufacturers to produce the product if you're only ordering, you know, 100 units at a time, and it's, it's not, it's not commercially viable really for anyone, 'cause then the cost goes up on us as well. So it was just, it was literally just c- the conversations with the manufacturer and what sort of their lowest threshold was. Uh, and then it was, it was l- literally, "Okay, if we wanna do this, we just have to do it," basically. Yeah. We, we can't... L- like, to go backwards and forwards with these minimum order quantities and whatnot, you know- It was probably more about changing what was in the product to make it feasible for us, um, 'cause some of the certain, yeah, elements of the product are quite expensive. So, um, we slightly altered the makeup of the product, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So th- this is really good, because this is the messiness of startup, right? Yes. It's not a, it's not a linear path- Yeah right? That's right. Yeah And, and what you guys did is instructive for a lot of people, but it also might be totally different to what another type of business in startup needs. So it's a, it's a- Yeah it's a rich discussion for, you know, for entrepreneurs listening. Mm. So I wanna dive into that a little bit more and, and even talk around the mindset of that a little bit- Mm because you've described yourself as being naive about, you know, the area that you're now experts in, uh, essentially. Mm. So I, I'm just curious, like, when did you realize the gap, as in there is something here? I know you mentioned a little bit at the start, but why were you guys the people to fill it? What was your thought process around that whole, that whole phase in that startup? Mm. I think, like, you, you start, you start off, like, the naivety starts, but then as you go through these IVF processes and the assisted reproductive processes, all... From my perspective, all I wanted to do was figure out what we could do to at least improve our chances. Yeah. So, and I'm an analyzer- Yeah so all I ended up, all I do is just get into the weeds of the data. Um, and even just through conversations with other people who were going through the same thing, there was just this one- One sort of statement that just kept popping up over and over again, and it was effectively w- we didn't know what we should have been doing, uh, to try and fall pregnant before we got to this stage. Mm. Like, w- we div- dove straight into doctors- Yeah because that's what we thought was the right thing to do- Yeah with no understanding or sort of exposure to anything that we could have been doing before that. So and then in terms of, I guess, from the naivety, like, you, you build that knowledge base. Yeah. Just building that knowledge base over time, and- I think you research everything you can when you're going through that to try and- Yeah find a solution. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, um, Michael was actually taking a product called L-carnitine, just, like, an amino acid. Um, so we astounded our doctors with the number of embryos we got. Most people get between zero and four embryos. We got 17- Wow which is out of control. Um, so at least when, you know, I'm up to round eight of failure, they could just keep putting in embryos. I didn't have to get a whole collection every time. Um, so I think that's where it led, like, from. Like, the doctor's like, "We've never seen numbers like this before. This is ridiculous." So we had no problem getting the eggs and the embryos, but it was more me holding onto a baby. Um, and I think that's where it all led from. Michael's like, "Well, I've been taking this supplement, and there are studies in the US that have proved that it's helps male sperm and the production of embryos." So I think that's kind of where- It was a bit of the light bulb moment Yeah It was like, okay, if this stuff, like preparation, it, it really works, and it's, it's like we are the customer too at the end of the day. Like, we, we went through it, so it's what we didn't have. So in terms of, you know, why are you the person to start or, y- you know, it's like, well, we, we know exactly what we wish we had or what we needed, so, um, why not give it a crack and see if we could produce, produce what we wish we had? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. And, and just on that, the, I, I am curious about the why, though, right? Because you both have full-time, secure- Mm. Secure jobs, right? And 'cause this all happened after you had your family, right? Um, you've got- Yeah two kids, and so why go through the pain of business? Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. Sometimes I wonder that. We are rather busy at the moment. Yeah. Um, I don't know. We, we're not people to sit still. I hate sitting still. We're both kind of from business families. My parents owned a business for 41 years, um- Together I saw my dad on a Sunday, um, and Michael's grandpa had businesses, and your dad's kind of ran his own business. Like, we just, we like, we like business. Um- And we did wanna help people as well. Like, we... Yeah, I don't know. I just... Yeah, it was just, we just have a crack, to be honest. Like, it's, it's kinda fun, like, to be honest. When we get a sale, we're so excited. When we get the feedback, we're so excited. Like, we're actually enjoying it. Um, obviously we'd like it to be, you know, keep building up, but, um, yeah, it'll come. All businesses are hard at the start. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, totally. All, all businesses are hard all the time, to be fair. Uh, yeah, they are. Yeah. It only gets easier as you go up. So I, I just, on that, before you go on, Kalina, what did you take from the family history that you either thought, "I'm going to be like that," or, "I'm not going to be like that"? Mm. Because you both grew up with business, um, you know, business role models- Mm which leaves a certain imprint on you. So did you have a, "We're not going to/we are going to" kind of thing going, bouncing around in your head? Probably a little bit. I think, like, from my perspective, I've always wanted to, to have my own business and, you know, it- or have h- or have ownership in a business. I mean, my, my grandfather was a very big piece of, of that puzzle. Like, back in, when I was in primary school, he owned car dealerships around the state of Victoria and, and, you know, I'd spend my, I'd spend my holidays basically off with him in his car dealerships and watch what, what he was doing. And, and then when he retired, just the things that he was able to provide for our family, and the autonomy and the, and the opportunities and stuff that come through it, it's... It, like you, you get a little bit addicted to that sort of, that sort of thing. Um, so yes, whilst it's a, a lotta hard work and there's a lotta stress and there's a lotta weight on the shoulders- Mm the, the, the opportunities that are on the other side of that is, is just too much to ignore- Mm at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah. I am curious too, I think there's, there's probably a few of our listeners who are looking to, you know, get into the supplement space or wanting to understand it a little bit more, and, you know, neither of you have a background in that space. And that's not a criticism- Mm it's just an observation. Yeah. Mm. How is it that you felt confident? I know that there's, you know, there's an element of just knowing that, yep, we see this problem- Yeah there's a solution here. Yeah. But what was it that- Yeah sorta created this knowing that it was gonna work, and how are you navigating that space and educating yourself in there? Like, are you getting support or d- is there a network that you're involved in? Um- Yeah, no, I think in terms of knowing if it's gonna work, you don't. Yeah. At the end of the day, we, like, we don't. All you can do is put the, that work in. But the confidence behind it was, really comes back to what I said before, was, like, we- Did the- are the customer. Yeah. So, like, w- we were the customer for what we wanted, and we also went through- Yeah the life experience, uh, to, to build the knowledge base. Yes, there's no qualifications or anything against our names, but- The life experience can also play into that every bit as much, I feel. Yeah. And when you, when, when we developed the product, Michael went with- met with the manufacturing team who had the scientists and stuff like that, and he's like, "You know, I've seen what's in your product. I've known some of these things, uh, uh, positive effects on fertility for a long time, and no one's done anything with them." So, you know, we have seen, um- So there's, yeah, there's been validi- Yeah validity and, and stuff behind what we've been trying to do. Um- So yeah, but sometimes the naivety too can be a benefit because you get a little bit tunnel vision in terms of what you actually want to achieve in, with the product, and you don't have these sort of side preconceived ideas of what is possible or not possible. So like I guess for, for example, the product had to be a powder from our perspective. There, there was no ifs, buts, or could'ves about it. Yeah. It had to be powder, not pills, because that is a preference for us. And at the end of the day, if, if it's going to be effective for you when you're taking it, you've got to take it day after day after day after day. It can't be sort of fleeting in, fleeting out. It's a consistency-based approach. And for us, if it was pills or capsules- Mm it would not have worked- Yeah because we just couldn't have stuck to it. So that was one of the pillars, I guess, from the, from the development point of view, was whatever goes into it must be able to produced in, be produced into a powder. Um, otherwise it, it just wasn't going to be effectively. Yeah, right. And then so creating the product, you, you... How did you s- get that research underway? How did you find the scientist? How did you... I mean, that's a- You really want the how questions, right? I do. I'm curious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh Because you... But, but, but it's inter- it's good because people don't often talk about the how, right? No. Yeah, yeah. I think people wanna go, "Oh, I want, you know, I wanna start a supplement." Yeah. "Oh, I know these things work." But how did you get into it? I mean, where did you start? Yeah. I think it's interesting. Was, was it Google research? Right. Was it a phone call? Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was Google searching. Yeah. But, um, it was from your podcast listening. One of the big, um, you know, uh, um, brands- Vitamin companies vitamin companies- Yeah uses a manufacturer in Sydney, so they dropped that on a podcast, or they dropped something similar, and Michael worked out who it was. Um- It's just, it's just a... Yeah, it's a lot of, it's, it's a lot of, um, you know, the how. It's, it's just so much research and diligence in the research effectively. And, and, and that's what it was. And, and over the time you sort of, you build up the base. The h- so the how from the formulation point of view, yes, it starts with Google, but then it develops into, you know, whether it's PubMed or it could become medical journals. Uh, but the, one of the big ones was there's, there's this subscription-based, um, I guess, scientific research platform that was based out of the US that, that I subscribe to. Uh, and they basically had a huge amount of, um, vitamin data and, and medical research all together in one database. Uh, and it was just a matter of utilizing that subscription to pull together exactly what we wanted, and then also the dosages. Okay. So you found one manuf- manufacturer that you wanted to work with. Um, you sent a cold email You had no backup plan. If that email didn't land, you've said Inkendo probably doesn't exist. Mm. What did you, what did you write in the email? Mm. Yeah. It was, look, the, uh, it was pretty basic, to be honest. Like, all, uh, it really, all, all that I put together was just, you know, our background, what we wanted to try and achieve, and the formula, effectively, in the email. Um, the, the probably most lucky thing about the whole email side of things was that, uh, the CEO of the manufacturing company actually went through his own IVF battle. Uh-huh. Oh, wow. When, when we're sending an email with our story, with what we're trying to do and formulations and whatnot, it, it did, it certainly helped that the person reading on the other side had experienced a similar thing. Um, so, so yeah, but there was definitely no backup plan. I, I had not looked at... I spent ages trying to find this one manufacturer and ac- and came across them, found them. I didn't have a backup. I didn't research or look for any other manufacturer, anything at all. It was literally, "Bang, you are it. I'll send you the story, send you the, I guess, the philosophy." Uh, I think I, I actually can't remember, but I think I told them that, "You were the, you are the only option-" Mm basically. We, if, if we don't go with you, it's probably not going to happen. Um, and it was in, it was incredible really. We, we sent the e- I was, I reckon I wrote the email maybe 30 times. Probably, and didn't send it until like I just send it 'cause there's, like he just, he gets fixated on things- Oh, I was getting fixated and doesn't, yeah. There, there was one night we're sitting on the couch and I was rewriting it again, going through, "Okay, is this worded right? Um, Maddie, am I saying this right?" Um, and she's like, "If you don't send the stupid thing, it's, um-" Yeah, I think I was pretty frustrated- like nothing's ever gonna happen by this point in time. So, so just send it, and I think it was about nine o'clock sitting on the couch- Yeah that night, and I, I just went, "Okay, just press send. Just press send. Send it off." Yeah. Uh, and then- They called you, didn't they? They called the next morning. The next morning. Straight away. Amazing. Yeah. That's so cool. Okay, so you guys are an accountant and a teacher. One thing I don't hear in those career choices is sales. To be in business you have to make sales, right? So was that a really steep learning curve for you, and how did you go about learning those skills? Mm. Uh, extremely steep. Yeah. Very steep, and it's still a steep learning curve. Mm. Um, marketing and sales, they are definitely not our thing. No. And it's, a- again, it's w- we've had... Look, there's, there's, all we have to do is just try and do it effectively. We're, there's a couple of communities that I'm in that, uh, we are leveraging in, just in terms of, you know, the, the online Facebook ads- Yeah and Meta Ads and, and- And all of that. But it's just, it's just learning the communication, the sales communication, and the ch- the different channels, the marketing channels, has probably or- Been the hardest easily been the hardest thing. The formulation was easy. The branding was easy. Yeah. The packaging was easy. All of that stuff was, was act- was easy. The sales and actually getting it out the door has proven to be so much harder- Mm than what I thought it was gonna be, um, and so much more time-consuming. Yeah. Definitely from a content and, um, and, and marketing or, or Facebook advertising perspective. So really, all, all I've been able to do or you've been able to do as well is just leverage these communities that we've- Yeah found along the way. They're paid communities, but i- it's, it's just education that we need to, to invest in- Mm um, and need to keep doing in order to just get better at it. It's a time game, this one. So Yeah And so looking back then, um, on that journey is what would you have done differently? Spent a whole lot more time on, on social media- Yeah basically. So social media is, is easily our weakest side. Yeah. Uh, but it's also the most important thing for the business to actually keep growing. Um, and, and we have historically not been social media people- Yeah uh, and that was the part we absolutely overlooked. Um- How much time it would take. It just takes so long, and it, yeah, even the creativity of coming up with the ideas. And the strategy- Yeah and even just the execution, like we- Mm we just completely overlooked that- Yeah um, all the way up to, like right up to launch. Yeah. Literally right up to launch. E- everything was, we felt was going really, really well. Yeah. We got to launch, and then it was just like, "Oh my God, we've actually gotta move this stuff now." Mm. Like, like, the, the easy stuff was done. Yeah. Um, so absolutely we would've spent a whole lot more time and effort- Yeah on social media and just communication. Yeah. Um, definitely- Filming content on a weekend with a two-year-old and a five-year-old, hard work We've got about an hour and a half while they're in bed and then Yeah. I think that's your edge though. Yeah. You, you guys are a success story- Yeah so bring the kids into the content. I mean, obviously that's- Yeah You know, everyone's got their Yeah. It, it, it's a really, it's a really interesting, um, I guess comment on business though, isn't it? You guys created from scratch- Mm something that hasn't been out there before, right? Mm. Yeah. And that's creativity. Yeah. That's, that's serving people, yet the hardest darn part of it was selling it. Mm. And it just, that's a really interesting business conundrum, isn't it? It's the what's next, how do we get better at it? Yeah, definitely. It's the art in the communication factor. It's like it's great, we've got it all in our head, we know exactly what we're trying to do, but it's gotta come out of here and out there. Um, and- And I think it's a trust-based product, so like, you know, you're not gonna buy something that you don't know if it's having, you know, the right results. So I suppose you just gotta get it out there so, you know, more people are falling pregnant or finding that their periods are, you know, the right cycle length and stuff like that. Yeah, totally. So, so just on that, and this is my marketing background, I guess, coming out. Um, uh, so if- We need to leverage that. So has, has story been really useful for you guys? You know, personal story and the story of the struggle. Mm. And, and salvation, solution. Yeah. It is absolutely the weapon- Yeah that we've got in our arsenal, for sure. Yeah. Um, and again, we haven't utilized it enough yet. No. So, so we, we really a- again, comes back- Scenario we need to grow in. Yeah, definitely. It, it, and that's, and that's why the biggest learning has been- Yeah was, was definitely we should have spent more time on the social media side- Mm because the story is absolutely the weapon. Mm. Um, so we- we're still learning. Yeah. We're still trying to figure out how, how we best communicate it. Um, I am way too much of an o- overanalyzer. He's a perfectionist, so he won't put anything up that's not perfect. Done. Yeah, done, and I've got to keep remember done is better than perfect. So- Yeah it's, it's, it's a matter of, yeah, we've got a real goal moving forward through to Christmas especially to really, uh, put that effort in- Yeah and just get a lot better at the, in this space, for sure. There is a really interesting marketing sale, uh, saying rather from back in the old direct mail days, you know, a B grade letter in the mail is better than an A grade- Yeah letter on your computer, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. It's so true. I need to really enjoy that. There's so many founders that would be listening right now and that could relate to that is y- it's something that's so special to you, so that's why you want it to be perfect- Yes because you want the message to deliver really well. And it's, I think it makes it really hard when you're trying to create content and you want it to be perfect, but it really is just getting out there. I mean, that's what we hear, right? Yeah. It's just produce, put it out there- Yeah and it, it just exercise the muscle. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I'm excited to watch that. Yeah, second guessing, yeah, second guessing what I'm gonna say or, or whatever it is, how it's gonna be received. It's just too much thought. So, you know, just, and also the re- repetitive thing. It's like, oh, I don't wanna be too repetitive, but the whole idea is to be repetitive. So y- so yeah, it's, it's a, it's a learning phase and we're, we're getting a little bit better at it, but we've, we've gotta keep going. Yeah. Yeah. There, there is another old saying there around that, right? You, you get sick of telling your story long before the market gets sick of hearing it. Yes. So, yeah. Yep. Yes. Yep. You do. I am interested, you said that the, the branding and everything was quite easy for you, and your branding's quite unique in the- Mm-hmm um, prenatal supplement market because they, they've got normally a pretty stock standard look, which is, you know, the soft colors- Yeah floral imagery- Yeah and that sort of reassurance. Yeah. You've gone a different route, and so what were you trying to say with Enkindle brand, and, um, how did you figure out what it should look like and feel like? How, what did that branding process look like for you? I liked the branding pr- process. I thought it was really fun. Yeah, you did. Um, from the very start we didn't want pinks and pastels and purples. No. It, it- Not pretty we, we did not want it to mix in. Um, two angles. One, because it was d- would just fall in and mix in with the crowd, but secondly, the, the idea of the brand is not to be female-centric. It's, it's, it's couple-centric. Mm. So, you know, if you, if you produce a product or produce a, a, a branding direction that sort of leads to that pastels and pinks and purples and whatnot, you're probably leaving out the male side of the market, and we're half the, half the equation in this sort of thing. So that was definitely part of, or probably the key, the key was that we didn't wanna be seen as just, you know- Female female-centric in terms of- We have developed a male product too, which we, um, financially can't afford to develop until this one hopefully. We'll get there. Yeah. Just steps. But, um, yeah. That's exciting. Yeah, but, but yeah, basically we took that brief to the, to the, the branding guys was no pinks, no pastels, don't look the same as what the current market is. We want it to be bold and confident, so like people see it on the shelf and goes, "Oh, that's cool." Like, yeah. I, I actually just took a cover class in art extra for year 12s, and one of the girls was developing her own brand, so I showed her our brand and she thought it was so cool. Um, yeah, which was kind of fun. That's amazing. And with your branding- But, yeah did you create like a bit of per- persona? To give it a, like a little bit of like an identity so that you kind of knew how to give it shape and color? Pro- to be perfectly honest, probably not. It was, like we really l- left, we had that brief that we just mentioned in terms of not being the same as the market, and we really took it to the branding agency and gave them pretty free control- Yeah to be honest, in terms of what they produced. And, and it was just feedback loops of, "Okay, what brands do you like? What brands don't you like?" Um, and I think there were certain brands, I think Aesop was a big one- Yeah that, that we said we really like sort of that, that look and feel of, of Aesop. Um, so I think that's probably where the, well, that is where the, the, the brown sort of color came from. Mm. But then we didn't want it to just sort of be really flat. We needed that pop of fun or- Or color um, color as well, so that's where the, the logo got its, its pop of color. Um, yeah, but we, we really did give a fair bit of control to the- Mm to the branding guys in terms of- Yeah the, the final- It was really good direction. That, um, they, they, they did nail it. We, we were really happy. Just delving down into that a little bit more, one of the, I think the challenges, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but you're selling a solution to a problem that people may not yet know they have. Yeah. And, and so how have you addressed that? You probably haven't totally solved it yet because it's so early, but how are you addressing that at the moment? I think now people realize, I think when we started IVF was back in 2019, and I feel like since then it's kind of come out that people are actually struggling to have babies. Like, it's now 2026, it's a few years on. Um, so I think there's a lot more education on the TV. So I think people realize that, hey, we're not just gonna come off the pill and fall pregnant the first time round. Um, so I think that's a really good thing for us that people realize that, you know, they might need to prepare their body for pregnancy. But yes, it's still like, are they gonna invest in a product that they're not sure if they're gonna need? 'Cause it's still, yeah, it's, it's a hard one. I think, yeah, the health centric and the, and the cons- fertility conversation is definitely a lot louder now than what- Yeah it was back in, say, 2019. Yeah. So, so that is definitely helpful, but it comes back again to that social media presence that we need and, and the story. Like it's, it's, again, our story is that weapon and it's the education around that. We are the customer, we need to communicate that- Yeah as much as we possibly can. Um, so, so that's just really where it comes and really leverage off the back of the increased conversation that is occurring out there at the moment. Mm. The Business Game is proud to partner with HighLevel, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses. With CRM funnel, website and course builders, marketing automations, email builders, and so much more, HighLevel software will drive your customer retention and your profits through the stratosphere. And HighLevel is fully white label, which means you can brand the platform and mobile app with your logo and company colors, and then resell it to your customers for a monthly subscription. Ready to go HighLevel? Click on the link below to begin your 14-day free trial. Have you gotten to a stage where you're trying to identify your actual target audience? Mm-hmm. Not just people who are struggling with IVF, but maybe people who are more health conscious or as you know, I can see- Yeah. Yeah I can see your stuff sitting in, like, the health food shops and all of this- Yeah. Yeah so it's, that's where I'm seeing it. Definitely. It's, um, it, it's funny 'cause we did have the tunnel vision really around the IVF and the preconception space, uh, initially 'cause that was the whole idea and the, the backstory, but we have had great feedback just from general, you know, users, customers who are just using it for general p-periods and- Yeah and cycle support. Yeah. Or whether they've got really debilitating, painful periods that keep them in bed or- Yeah or r- and rely on, um, pain medication and stuff. So yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's a lot broader than what we, we thought it would, would be initially. Um, but it's just a matter of having that conversation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It, it's really interesting, right? Because y- you, you are selling something that people don't know they need, whereas if it was a headache tablet, for instance, "Oh, I've got a headache. I take a tablet," right? Yeah. Now it's will we, or I mean- Educating, yeah yeah, and I was talking to my wife this morning before we came into the studio and talking about our journey back then, and she went, "Oh, at least people are talking about it more now." You know, I think- Mm. Yeah the, the only discussion we kind of had was don't have a hot bath, right? Right. See, I even heard that one. Exactly, yeah. That's for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. That's great. No, no hot baths for six months. No saunas. Yeah. Yep, none of that, right? Yeah. So it's, it's, it's ob- it's obviously a really good thing how that has moved along, and that helps you solve the problem- Yeah that you solve. Mm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, it's, it's, and when there is, you know, if you don't have the awareness of a problem that you may have or, or whatever it might be, the only way to, to build the awareness is have the conversation and communicate it. Mm. So, 'cause no one's feeling anything necessarily at the time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's right. And, and there you go, fellas. Stay out of the sauna or the hot bath, right? So- No saunas and no baths. And, and buy, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, and buy the supplement. Yeah. And buy on Kindle, yeah. Talking about the business more, so getting to your first $10,000 in revenue, um, and your first retail partnership with GoVita, um, they're really big milestones for that startup phase, so congratulations. Yeah, well done. Thanks. But you've been really deliberate about framing them as an honest picture of that early stage building, not an overnight success. What did that journey from launch to those first wins actually look like day to day? It was hard. It was hard. There's just so much learning that we had to do, and effectively, like we- we're balancing full-time work. Maddie's got another business as well, and we've got the two kids, so effectively, you know, we, the, the kids come first at all times. There's no ifs, buts, or could'ves about that. So when they need us and the, the attention, it, it's on them. But wherever we can find that time around our work- Mm and around the kids is, is when we are s- spending, you know, time on, on In Kindle. It's a 7:00 to a 9:30 job. So yeah, before they wake up and after they go to bed. But It's, yeah, it, and it's just a never r- like, it's just a rolling process of- Mm of learning, and, and asking the question is probably one of the big things. We've, we've done a few different things with the local paper here. Yeah. There's a local publication here as well, uh, sorry, online publication, who we spoke to and had interviews with. Yeah. We did launch events with local businesses, so local business community. The local community have, um, really accepted us and, like, got a, like, celebrated us, which is fabulous, and I think that's... You know, I- I'm a frequent customer at GoVita, so I think that helped. Like, but we did send a lot of emails out to other businesses, and they've just gone unanswered. So I suppose, you know, that's where we need to follow up and get better with that. But, um, yeah, I don't know. It's all, it's all just learning and- Mm yeah, building the foundations. Trial and error, yeah. Yeah. Yep. So just on- It is trial and error. That's a good way to put it. Yeah, yeah. And just on that, um, how do you protect yourselves, your family, and the business from the business burning you out? You know, you mentioned it's a 7:00 till 9:30 or whatever kind of- Yeah kind of deal. Yeah. So you're up in the morning doing all the crazy stuff, getting the, the kids ready, you're going to work, you're coming home, doing all the crazy stuff with the kids, and meals, and baths, and so forth- and then you're sitting down. That's a very long day, and it's an- a stressful, potentially, and an, you know, an energy-draining day. So what are you guys doing? And the answer might be nothing. But what are you guys doing to protect yourselves from that burnout that others might be able to learn from? It's, it's a really good question because it's something that I was- Yeah struggling with- Yeah at the start until basically Maddie and my mum- Mum told him off pulled me into line, basically. Yeah. I, I was- Michael's a bit of a workaholic and a perfectionist, if you haven't realized that already. So he needed to tell, like, do you know what? If we've spent our money and lost our money, that's just how it is. But we can't- I just had to reduce the- We can't do everything it, it was reducing the, the importance and the- Yeah and the need for it to work too quickly, if that makes sense. Mm. Um, I just had to re- reduce the significance of- Yeah what we were trying to do in my own head because I, I was just spinning out everything. Yeah. I, I was spending every single second I was awake where I wasn't at work or wasn't with the kids, when I probably should've been with the kids- Mm more than what I was at the time. Yeah. Um, because I was just putting far, far, far too much weight on trying to get this to work. Yeah. Um, so- Yeah. And to- Now we schedule our weekends. So, like, this weekend we've got a birthday party, and we're going to a Bluey stage. So, so I take-- I'm gonna take the kids to the Bluey party, uh, Bluey stage show and the party, and Michael will stay home and work, and then the other half of the days we're having family time. So I think it's just, yeah, working out whatever, whatever plans are on the weekend, I usually go with the kids solo to those things, and Michael does the work then, and then we can do something nice as a family in the other time. Much, like, as much as you, as much as you want it to, to really work, y- and you have to want it to work, but it was just a matter of reducing the weight- Mm on, on the shoul- Hmm. A- and Michael, how did you do that? Because that's so easy to say, "Oh, I just won't think about it. I just won't work." Yeah. Did you, did you meditate? Did you go to church more? What, what were the things- You would, you would say what's the strategy? Yeah. What were the things that helped slow your mind down? Because all of those things are so easy to say, you know? Mm. "Just relax," or just- Yeah. So what does that mean? Yeah. How do I do that? It's hard- Well- when you're financially invested in something. Yeah. It's- And emotionally invested really, to, to be honest, it took Maddie and Mum to have a crack at me to- Yeah. We did to, one, just pull... Just slow the mind down- Yeah effectively. It, it, it was just y- you know, like you say, it is easy just to say to do it, but they had to have the crack at me, and also, uh, I, I started running more if that's anything. I started... I'm not, I'm not really a runner, but, but I was finding that running was actually get- like loosening- Clearing your mind my mind and just f- freeing, I guess, the en- endorphins in my head and giving me a lot more clarity. Yeah. So it was, yeah, the, the snap from Maddie and Mum. It was the little bit of, you know, additional exercise and, um, and consciously making the effort to, to reduce the weight on what I was trying to do, effectively, and it has helped. Yeah. Definitely. Remember, Kalina, our, our guest a couple of weeks ago, Boaz? He said that- Yeah, he- one of the goals he believes in life is to be at peace with whatever you're doing. Yeah. If you've got a job, be at peace with that. If you're running a business and you're working hard, be at peace with that. Yes. And, and so finding, finding what that thing is that helps you find the peace, I think, is a, is a struggle and a challenge for many entrepreneurs. Mm. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And go, go back to controlling what you control, which is what's happening right now. Mm. I can't control what's gonna happen in the future. Yeah. I can't imagine about all, all the different things that could be happening in 6 or 12 or 18 months' time. I can only control what, what is happening right now. And, um, yeah, it was, it was trying to keep it present. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Actually, Maddie, I've got a question for you, too. If, if you... After you and, um, Michael's mum had a, had a crack at him, if he hadn't have changed, what would you have done then? Maybe had another crack at him. I don't know. We don't really fight that often. Um, but yeah, I just felt like, you know, he's the one that's at work 7:30 till 6:00 every day, and I only teach two days a week now. Um- But the kids were just... Yeah, like he was just snappy at the kids, and he's not usually like that. So I let him know that he needed to uplift his game or, yeah, well, yeah. 'Cause that's not fair on them. Yeah. It's not. They're, they're really good, so yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, you've kind of lined me up there, Steve. I've, I'm curious about the dynamic of, um- Yeah co-founder, you know, be- also being married and building a business- Yeah and raising children together. Um, one- Yeah, sorry if I've put you in it, Michael, there. That, you know, good stuff I have no idea how you guys do that. So- I should be right that's an additional layer that most co-founders- Yeah. 100% don't really experience. It's n- it's very rare that you see a married couple, you know, going into business together. So has going through that fertility journey together and now building InKindo, do you think that that has allowed you to go on this journey together a little bit more, uh, peaceful's probably not the right word, but Yeah. In tune with each other- Yeah and being able to have those, you know, big conversations and like how d- how does it work? Yeah, look, I- Yeah, I think if you can get through IVF, you can get through most things. I think, yeah, health is the most important thing, as we all know, so. Yeah. I, exactly. I, I don't, I don't think there's anything that we... This is probably sounds corny. There's probably nothing we, we can't really do together having got through the IVF process. Like that, that was two years. It was the middle of COVID. There was eight rounds of it. There was three rounds of, of IUI. Like, if, if we can get through all of that, like this, this is easy in comparison, to be honest. Yeah, right. It sets the threshold. So, uh, yeah, the threshold was set really high, basically. Mm-hmm. Like IVF really- It was stressful really set it really high. And like we enjoy doing things together. Mm. Like it's not like we're trying to get away from each other or any of that sort of thing. We, we like, like we, we ru- run together, play tennis together. We met through tennis. Um, yeah. Yeah. Most days I don't work, we meet Michael for a coffee every day. Um- Exactly. Like- We just, yeah and f- I think ul- ultimately family on both, in both of our sides- Mm is very, very close- Mm and very, very important. So, um- Mm you know? Yes, yes, there's business there, but y- you find the people that you work best with, and that's definitely Maddie, um, for me. Uh, but yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Correct answer. Yeah. Correct answer. Yeah. Tick. He's in the good books. Yeah. And do you have- So yeah, basically... Oh, go ahead. No, sorry, I was gonna, just gonna ask if you have like, uh, set roles within the business. Mm. Have you sort of allocated, "Okay, I'm doing this, you're doing that"? Or is it like, "Oh, well, just all hands on deck whenever possible?" That's a good question. Michael does a lot of the work, and I do a lot of the videoing of the, um- You- Instagram it's probably, look, it's- Yeah yeah. There's a little bit of split. Like we got, we just gotta share where we can share. Um, probably more of the, the strategy and the script writing and all that stuff I do, and then Maddie's probably the one who's deli- delivering it on the other side. Yeah. Um- But yeah, o- otherwise it's just trying to get in and do whatever we can to help each other where we can- Yeah do it effectively. Um, and learning along the way. Like, Maddie's, Maddie's done a lot of the, the outreach, I suppose. Mm. So the GoVita outreach, the, the newspaper outreach, all, all of that sort of thing, and then I'm probably doing a lot more of the behind the scenes- Yeah stuff, if that makes sense. All the admin stuff like that, and the tedious jobs. Yeah. Yeah. So what's keeping you up at night then with regards to the business? Uh, growth. It's just, it's, it's that next sale. It's, it's trying to keep, keep g- generating the sales- Mm generating the, the exposure and the understanding of what we're trying to do. Um, yeah, that, that, that is the, the main thing that, that keeps us up, building a bank so we can go back and buy more stock, uh, buy more stock and keep going, building a bank even further so we can do these next products that we've already got formulated- Mm and discussed with the manufacturer. But that, that is what it's all about. It's the cashflow side of that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I guess being an accountant too, that's sort of probably always, um- playing on your mind as well, right? So. Yes. Numbers, numbers. Numbers. Yep, yep, yep. You do costings and stuff, it's all across that. All right. Let's, let's lean into that left brain a little bit more then. What does the business look like in 12 months? What, what would be really good? You know, what would you consider, I don't know if failure's the right word, or, you know, where do you see things going? Look, I think failure is stopping- Yeah at the end of the day. If, if, if we aren't still going in 12 months, that's failure at the end of the day. Um, we have 3,000 units of, that we have to sell through before October 27. Mm. And I think the ultimate success... Well, probably in my mind, the, the ultimate success could pro- pro- probably go further than that, but if we can get through that- This lot lot of stock- Yeah, and afford to buy the next lot of stock, I think that will be, you know, kind of first goal. And we're, we've, in a, w- we're in a good position 'cause if we can ac- we c- if we can move all of that stock, we, we'll be in a position to be able to buy the new stock, but also start the development of the next product. Mm. So w- we don't, we've obviously got full-time work, we've got g- great jobs, and we aren't relying on the business to, to pay us at all. We don't need it to pay us. So, so everything that it makes can go back into the de- development of new products, new stock- Yeah and just growth at the end of the day. So I suppose that's all, yeah. Yeah. So how long do you think it'll take you then for the business-- you to be in the position to go, "You know what? We don't need our work now. The business is sustaining us." Come on, numbers man. Let me know what you have- Michael has said that, "Do you still wanna teach, Nutty?" My two days work are teaching, but no, I like teaching. Um- It's-- Look, I, I would probably be giving it five years at least. Like, it, it would have to be at minimum five years- Mm-hmm I would, I would say, before it's sort of at a position where it can replace incomes or, or what-whatever that might be. Because yeah, we, I-- As soon as, as soon as you step out and step into it full time Uh, yes, you can absolutely apply more time. The growth will probably come a lot quicker because you can apply that time, but the, the pressure at least isn't on the business to pay for our life at the moment. Um- Yeah yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So- Mm. I'm curious, did you, before I jump into the last question, did you write a business plan before you started? Ooh. Ooh, I like that. Nope. That's okay. Yeah. I just was curious. Yeah. No, there's not an- I- It's, it's actually a big task, and there- Yeah are people... I, my own experience, I ask because I, when I did a tech startup, I actually didn't... I did a one-pager. I parked my business plan, and I was so excited to get it started that I just jumped in, and then- Mm I found I had to go backwards, and I, it was a great exercise- Yeah to actually sit down and learn about what I was actually doing. Yeah. Great question. So I just, I like to ask the question sometimes- Yeah Great, great question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And no, we didn't. No. I, I think the business plan was ultimately the formulation that we put together- Mm to present to the manufacturer. That, that was all- Yes. Yeah Oh. That was your business plan. Yeah, it was. 100%. It was, so, so no, in terms of formal business plan, we haven't done that at, at all, but we, we probably really should be looking at it. Mm. It's a nice little guide map. Um- Yeah Like a little... Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think we have goals- It keeps you on track but yeah, yeah. Yeah. But something to measure against would definitely be, be, be well worth the time. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, sorry to throw that at you. Yeah. I just, uh, I was curious. No, I, I'm, I'm really interested too about the serendipity or the, um, the synchronicity of the one guy you pitched to- Yeah had a similar story of you. It's almost like there's a signal from the universe- That's, that's right that this is meant to be kind of thing, so. That's what I sort of thought too. Yeah. Very cool. It was almost like an alignment of multiple things. Like, that was probably just the one thing. The other one was definitely the, the acetylcarnitine, I guess, mic drop moment. Yeah. Really, it was the one that kicked everything off when I found that research to suggest that it would have... 'Cause I was only taking it for sports and health purposes. I wasn't taking it for any purpose in relation to reproduction, but when I found that information and teamed together with the embryo result we got- Mm yeah, for sure, it was, it, it was just one of a number of little bits of the puzzle that really pulled it together to say, "Hey, let's just do this." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of came, came along at the exact right time, right? To give, give the idea the next impetus. Mm. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And they, they, the, like, the sequence of the events, it definitely, it worked. Like, at first it was the, the, the mic drop moment, then it turns into, you know, the conversations that you have with people where it's just the repeated- comment of we didn't know what to do. Yeah. Then you send the email and get the f- get the response saying that the, the CEO had his own battles. Mm. Um, then you go up and you present to the manufacturers, and the manufacturers or the, or the formulators up with them- Yeah are, are saying, "Look, we've known these ingredients work or have worked in this space for a number of years, but it's never been put together in this way before." So it's sort of like just this, this cycle of things that just build your confidence, and you can... In terms of what you're trying to do. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So interestingly then, the flip side of that, if that hadn't have happened on the journey, would that have been a lot harder to get to where you are today? Uh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. For sure. Mm. Yep, yep, because it just wouldn't have been... Like, you play around with business ideas- Things fell into place we... And, and we, we played around with different business ideas and, like, I've, I like supplements and all that sort of stuff. I've been in that for, for a long time- Yeah and was playing around with different supplement ideas before those very specific moments happened- Mm um, that sort of just put that, that trajectory or that pathway in place. Mm. I- it's a really interesting one 'cause a lot of, not a lot, but a number of our guests mention the luck that they've had along the way. Mm. And we've all heard the Gary Player thing in golf, you know, the more I, the harder I practice, the better I'll, the luckier I get kind of thing. Yeah. So it's just- Yeah you've, you've got to put yourself in that situation. But it's j- it's fascinating how that element, is it luck? Is it synchronicity? Whatever it is does play a part- Mm in success or otherwise for people and- Yeah yeah. Luck is opportunity, where opportunity meets- Meets preparation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So- Yeah our listeners are global, with businesses spanning from levels one all the way up to 10. So for these listeners hearing your story firsthand that might be sitting at zero, wanting to, you know, jump into that startup stage, be where you are, and just say yeah. So we all love cheat codes- Yep don't we? Yep, want a cheat. We all want something like a little piece, a little nugget that you can give someone who's sitting there who's got an idea- A shortcut wants to jump in. Yep, shortcut. Yeah, shortcut. What advice could you give them? To go from that s- that zero point to, to getting to where you are now, to saying yes, to getting it started, and to jumping in. I think y- you have to be solving a problem. Like, there's, there's gotta be something that you're solving, and to make it even better and give you so much more conviction is if you're solving a problem that you actually have or have lived. And that's definitely, that's definitely where we felt, like we've spoken about, we don't have the, the, the, I guess the- Degree, yeah degrees and the stuff behind us, but- Mm-hmm but we definitely knew that there was a problem or something that we wanted to solve out there. Yeah. We had a passion for that business. And do it in a very specific way. Mm-hmm. Um, and be different. Like, there was... What was that i- Sort of stand out there was, there was a good thing I heard on a, there was a podcast that was talking about what, do you wanna be better or do you wanna be different? Mm-hmm. And better is subjective, but different is not necessarily subjective. Mm-hmm. Different is different. So if you have, if, yeah, it's, if you have that problem that you're, uh, able to solve or willing to solve, but you've also experienced the problem, uh, it makes the conviction a whole lot better if you've got a different way of doing it. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. So, so just another aspect of that then, what's one mistake you've made that you would tell other founders and startups to avoid? Ooh, good one. Ah, that's a really good one. Probably not- Any mistakes that you- not having a marketing degree. Yeah. Any mistakes. No, definitely, it's, it's just understand what, it's, the, the understanding of what you're getting yourself into, I think- Mm sometimes. And, and that, and that comes back to what Maddie just said about the marketing. Yeah, the time to do the marketing, I think that's where we're finding the biggest challenge. Yeah. And just learning, learning communications. It's, it's, it's the sales skills. Yeah. Like, it's, it's so, so valuable. That was our mistake, probably overlooking that. Too much into, you know, branding or formulation or whatever, and those things are obviously important because the product, like, at the end of the day, has to work. Um, but yeah, our mistake was not to, not to get as heavily involved or heavily educated on the sales space as what we should have. Yeah. A- and is that something professional development-wise you would look to do in the future, next three months, six months, or? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you're already in some online courses for that. Yeah. I'm in- Yeah a few online- Yeah community groups and different things in terms- Yeah of online advertising and, and whatnot, so- Yeah uh, it, it's essential. Y- you, you c- you can't, you can't go without it. You have to have it. If, if you... You know, you can develop the greatest thing in the world, but if nobody knows who you are or nobody knows what it is, what's the use of even developing it? So- Right. Yeah. Well, I think it might be time for quick-fire questions. I think you're right. Yep. Um, w- this is gonna be fun to do it with two. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Um, so I guess, so- Don't stop me we're gonna fire 10 questions at you. We just ask that you answer in a sentence or less. I think what we'll do is we'll an- ask the question and, what, do we get them to answer at the same time and see who- see if they match up? No? We could do. No. No. Yeah. We won't do that to you. Yeah. Um, m- just one for one, um, with your answers and, um- Yeah let's, let's get into it. Yeah. Um, do you wanna kick us off, Steve? Yeah, I'll, I'll kick us off. Okay. So Maddie and Michael, are you office or work from home people? Office. Yeah, I'm office. What was your first job? Ooh, uh, t- I w- tennis coach. Tennis coach. We're both tennis coaches. Oh, we could have done this at the same time. Wow. Yeah, yeah. What's your go-to productivity hack? Oh. I don't know. I'm very efficient on my phone, which is required for my other job, my other business. Productivity hack. Probably to- the, oh, to-do list maybe? I don't know, having a list. Yeah. Yeah, a list. Yeah. Prioritizing. Yeah. Mm. Um, Android or iPhone? iPhone. iPhone. W- Wouldn't have guessed that, right? Yeah, yeah. Would've been fun if they each said something different. Android's so annoying. Yeah, yeah. Uh, what's your coffee order? Espresso. Um, extra hot latte. Yeah, okay. If you weren't doing what you do now, what career would you choose? And you can't choose the careers you already have. Yeah. Yes. I always wanted to be a boundary rider at the AFL when I was little. What? Yeah, it was fun. Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. There's a learning for me. Uh, I would be, uh, if we could do anything, I'd be Jeremy Clarkson. Basically. There you go. All right. Top Gear host, Clarkson's Farm. Yep. Cool. What's the best investment you've ever made? Hopefully in Kindle. Yes, hopefully. It's- Um, are you early risers or night owls? Early risers. Early risers. Yeah. Mm-hmm. One piece of tech you couldn't live without. My phone. Yeah, pr- probably the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and what's a book or podcast recommendation? Ooh. I loved Beyond the Bump when I was pregnant. I listened to that all the time. Uh, and Mark Bouris, Mark Bouris, Straight Talk, Mark Bouris, The Mentor, he's amazing. Great. Mm-hmm. Awesome. Yeah. All right. All right, last question. Can I ask the last question? Yeah, you wanna hit off? No, uh, you can take it. You want me to go? Yeah. Okay. All righty. So here's the big one. So if business truly is a game, Michael Dunn and Maddie Barnett, what's your definition of winning? Ooh. Uh, meeting the purpose, I think, for us. Yeah. If, or for me, definitely. Mm. We, we've got a purpose, and we've, we wanna achieve a certain purpose with this brand and this product. If we can do that for people- Mm that's definitely winning. Yeah. I think the highlight for us is when people message us and say they're pregnant, so we get pretty excited about it. Yep. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Meeting that purpose, that's- Yeah yeah. Wow. Yeah. So where can, um, our listeners find you and your business online? Yeah, so Instagram is, uh, @inkindlewellness, and the website is www.inkindle.com.au. Uh, yeah, and we're stocked in GoVita, only one store at the moment. In Warnambool. But the, the store in, in Warnambool here is supporting us, so we're stocked down in there. Mm. Uh, but hopefully that spreads and- Mm gets further out. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you. This has been really fun. Yeah. I'm excited- It's been great fun to see where you guys head on your journey. Thank you. Yeah. We'll bring you back in a year and find out- Yeah where things are and- Yeah where stock levels are at. Yeah. Yeah, that, that- Yeah that'll be a great conversation, right? Yeah, I think so. A year from now or 18 months from now. Yeah. Yeah, so watch this space. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, we'd love that. No, for sure. A lot of learnings and a lot, lot of growth. All right. That's all we've got time for. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to The Business Game, and check out the playlist for the level of business you're currently playing. Because every founder is somewhere on the game board, from zero all the way to over $50 billion. Choose your level, and we'll see you next time. Whoa. This is The Business Game