Took a 2.2 million euro loan out, loan out- Wow and built this restaurant Wow. Someone called me this week the queen of reinvention. I love a pivot, and I think I've just really said yes to opportunities as they've come about. I definitely don't want to make the mistake of not understanding my capacity and then saying yes from a place of scarcity- Yeah and then not being able to deliver. Having fun along the way and doing it with great people, that, to me, is the definition of success in business. Welcome to The Business Game, the show that breaks business down into real levels from zero to over $50 billion so founders can see exactly where they are and what comes next. Today's guest is playing at level one, which sits in the zero to $1 million bracket, the founder, startup, and survival stage. At this level, you're proving the model works. You're validating demand, refining positioning, and fighting for consistent revenue. The challenges? Doing almost everything yourself, hiring your first team member, and stepping from practitioner into CEO. The goal? Turn expertise into traction and build momentum that's repeatable, not accidental. Welcome to The Business Game. I'm Kaleena Steno. I'm Steve Plummer. Be sure to like and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening. Today, we're joined by Miranda McLennan, founder of Those Who Dare Agency. After spending 15 years building businesses across hospitality, fashion, aviation, and construction, and even running an award-winning restaurant in the Italian Dolomites, she's now helping creators and brands build long-term commercial partnerships, not just one-off deals. Today, Miranda is navigating the challenge of launching a brand-new business earlier than planned, building the systems to support rapid growth, and proving that sometimes the biggest opportunities come from taking the leap before you're ready. So let's dive in with Miranda McLennan Miranda, it's so nice to have you on the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Welcome. Yeah, welcome, welcome. Yes. I'm so excited to be here. Yay. All right, so Miranda, can you tell us about Those Who Dare? Yeah. So it was initially a business consultant, um, business that I started 2022, and I've been doing it since then. But I had very much a HR focus, which is what I studied. Uh, and I guess with all of the changes going on in our society at the moment with how, you know, work cover and psychological injury, all that sort of things, it just, it's getting far more complicated- Yes, yes to be an in-house HR professional. Yes. I felt like I needed to outsource to, you know, employment lawyers far more often than I ever have. Right. So I felt pulled to pivot well and truly, and I think that my strengths are very much cheerleading other people, and I really love the strategy behind business. Mm-hmm. So when the idea of representing others, and not just talent, you know, in terms of, uh, a creator, but it could be a media personality, it could be a brand, I think that just really naturally excited me. Yeah. And it just felt like the perfect fit. So yeah, it just, it all k- kind of come together. Yeah. Fun. Well, just for anyone listening, I do know Miranda a little bit, so, um, I believe that you're a great cheerleader. Yeah, thank you. So it's really exciting to see you launch this. Thanks. All righty. So let's, uh, talk about your career and the steps that got you from, I guess from childhood to the chair today, Miranda. Oh, goodness. Wow, there's a lot of chapters. Because there is a bit there, right, from the introduction, right? Of Italian restaurant in the Dolomites- Yep et cetera, et cetera. Yep. Yeah. So, um, someone called me this week the queen of reinvention. Ah. Which- I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I just, I love a pivot, and I think I've just really said yes to opportunities as they've come about. Um, and the fact that I, I feel like I'm a really natural people person. Like, I love people. Yes. I'm really curious about them, what motivates them, and, and how I can kind of relate or help. Yeah. And I think when it comes to, like, when I was at uni, like, I hated the uni courses. I actually just really loved getting to know my professors and my tutors and... Like, some of them are still my friends today. They've, you know, hired me or they've put me forward for jobs, and I've just naturally followed where that's led me. Yeah. And that's actually how I got into Italy, um, funnily enough. I was having lunch with someone and they mentioned they were going to, you know, holiday in, in Italy with their husband, and she basically invited me and I went, and it all just kind of went on from there. Wow. It was meant to be 12 months and it turned into five years. Wow. Yeah, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so what other things have happened along the way? Oh, goodness. I've, oh, worked as the head of HR, uh, in, for a company in Perth managing hospitality staff all across Western Australia, so about 300 employees that we were managing. Wow. Um, worked for an, as an EA for a really great CEO, so that saw me traveling the world doing all sorts of things. Acquisitions, head hunting. That was really fun, but- Yeah you know, you're learning a lot on the go, but I just loved it. Just, it was just something no one else my age was doing. Yeah. And I was just given a lot of leeway, and I guess I learn best by learning from others that I really admire and respect, and yeah, so that was a really great opportunity. I have managed a software development company in construction space. When I moved back from Italy, I found myself managing that, and that was a really great chapter. So COVID had hit, and just how it kind of went. I was managing an international team of developers, which was really fun. They were all over the world, and we're all working remotely anyway, so nothing for us changed. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, if anything, it was, it was, like a really exciting thing to be a part of. Yeah, yeah. What a cool time to have been doing that. Yeah. Yeah. And then after that, I just could not contemplate logging into Seek. I don't know what it was, but I just thought, "There is nothing calling me to go Yeah, yeah to go and look at Seek." I just, there's just, I can't do that. That just- Yeah wasn't an option. And I thought, "Well, what can I do on my own?" Mm-hmm. And I thought, "Wow, I've set up all these other businesses for other people- Yeah and, and ran things." And I thought, "Well, I wanna help other people do that," 'cause I feel confident at, you know, doing that sort of stage. And yeah, and then obviously s- got reconnected with Cal, which was great. Yeah. Um, but yeah, and I've just been doing that ever since. I've taken on contracts with clients that I've been working with, and then yeah, the recent pivot to Those Who Dare Agency. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Great story. I'm, I'm feeling a little bit like a third wheel here, I must say, right? I'm sorry, Steve. We can go for a drink after. Look, look, yeah, it's all right. No, I feel better now. Uh, just, just on that though, Miranda, obviously you trust your gut a lot in terms of making those decisions. It's a, a yes, yes, yes kind of momentum- Yeah in, in that story. Have there been times where you've said no to things? Mm-hmm. Oh, well and truly. A- and- Well and truly and so what was the difference then for you between a yes and a no? How did you discern that? Uh, so I've j- probably generally said yes initially- Yeah um, to quite a few things. And then as we've progressed, and it, as recent as this year actually, I was given a really great opportunity to open up a different agency in a different industry, which could've been really exciting. Yeah. Um, but I just, as we kept on going through it and the discussions, and obviously when you're going into business, there's a lot of, you know, important conversations that need to be had. Mm-hmm. And I just had that gut feeling that I don't think we're, you know, on the same page, and if I'm feeling this now- Mm I've had enough experience to know that if, if you feel that, you should trust that early on- Mm. Yeah rather than see- Deal with it later see the potential and just be blinded by it. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and then you've gotta turn around and have a really frank conversation of, you know, I'd, I would love to go ahead with this and you've got my full support and, you know, I'd love to help in some way, but I just can't commit in the way that, you know, you probably expect me to. Mm. Um, other ways I have, other times I have said no, completely no, which is hard. Yeah. I think I am definitely a people pleaser. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But there's a lot of strength in saying no too because- Yes you know, you, you realign back onto the path where you're meant to be and- Yeah I think I've always just thought if one no is gonna turn into a yes that's more aligned down the track anyway, so- Totally what are you really losing? Mm. Yeah. Nothing. Well, and you have to say no sometimes to be able to say yes- Mm to the things that- Yeah you- To have the capacity of the things that you- Yeah enjoy doing. Mm. Totally. For sure. Mm. Yeah. So before we get into the agency- Yeah um, I wanna talk about a social media post- Oh that went up recently. I still have a vulnerability hangover. No, it's all right. No one will hear it. It's, it's, it can be our secret. Okay. So it's kind of trailing off of what we were just talked about, so is it, it said the nine times y- you changed your mind, um, and I thought that that was really powerful and vulnerable, like you said. Mm-hmm. Mm. Um, so before we get into the agency, can you j- walk us through that list? So and we kinda touched on it already, but can you explore that a little bit more with us? Yeah. So I guess it all kind of came from, I, I really love social media. I love the connection aspect. I love that, um, people can connect with people from all around the world. Yeah. And people can feel a real affinity with someone- Yes even if they've never met them in person, and I am definitely an in-person, you know, person. Like, I just, I love the, the physical element of getting to know and trust someone. But- Yeah I really love that part of social media where you can look at someone and, and feel less alone or feel connected to them. And when I had started the Those Who Dare agency Instagram- I didn't want to do the whole get to know me. Like, it just, it's just not me. Yeah. Like, I just, I feel like I'm a very different kind of person when I approach things. Yeah. And I thought, "Well, what's a different way that I can share enough about me, um, that they feel like they're getting a piece that they wouldn't have known before?" Mm. Um, but that it's done in a different way, and I thought, "Well, if I can be vulnerable and, and share," which some people might see that as a whole bunch of failures, but, like, I don't regret any of them. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm so glad that- Mm all of them have happened and- Yeah you know, I am where I am today. So yeah, sharing things like, you know, the fact that I'd never thought that I'd be a stepmom, but then, you know, fell in love with someone, and he had two kids, and, you know, I just absolutely fell in love with them. They're my best friends, and although we, you know, our relationship ended, I c- I just learnt so much from that. And then wanting to be a role model for someone more than anything, you know? It's like that really helped with my own purpose. Yeah. Mm. Not just doing something for myself, but it just made me think, "Okay, great, like, if I felt that strongly about someone else's children, how am I gonna feel when I have my own family?" And imagine, like, the motivation and drive I'll have when I am a mom, and I've certainly seen that in you as well- Mm Cal. Like- Mm-hmm it's like that's incredible to watch. But yeah, there was lots of things that I shared. Yeah. And what, from those things that you shared, what do you think that that, like, reveals about how you approach decisions in life and about business? Again, like, I just follow an opportunity. Yeah. Like, I've just, something has piqued my interest, and I've thought, "Well, why not try it?" Yeah. Um, I think it probably does tie back to being entrepreneurial. Yeah. Yes, yes. You know, where you- Yes just things interest you, and you kind of get focused on it. Mm-hmm. And that's just, yeah, I guess that's how I am. But yeah, I mean, uh, it's really weird. I, I think of my life in chapters because they've been so different from- Mm the previous or the next. Yeah. Like, you know, living in a different country or living in a different state or, um, learning a different language to, you know- Yeah do, do business. Like- Yeah that's a very big challenge that, you know, I don't have to deal with today thankfully. Yeah. But yeah, it's just naturally... I mean, to me it's made sense, but I think it was really funny once I posted it, people reaching out, going, "You know, I've watched you for the last 15, 20 years and watched it happen," and we were just like, "What you gonna do next?" Like, it's- it's really entertaining. I thought, "I'm glad it's entertaining for you." When those chapters close- Yeah what is it that i- internalizes for you, where you go, "Okay, this is finished now"? That's a good question. Um, I think every one has been different- Mm if I'm being honest. Yeah, yeah. It would be, yeah. Uh, probably the one that stands out the most when you ask me that is moving back from Italy- Mm to Australia. Yeah. Because, you know, by all measures we had a really great business. Um, my ex was a famous chef, and it was his dream to always build the restaurant in his hometown. So when I met him, he was just as driven and crazy as I was, so we thought, "Let's do it." So we took a 2.2 million euro loan out- Wow and built this restaurant Wow. And, like, he's doing phenomenally well. Yeah. Um, he's paid that back within, I think it was, like, seven or eight years- Wow which is just insane. That's great. Yes. Dolomites is great to do business, in hospitality anyway. Mm. Don't really recommend it in Australia. Um- Yeah. But, you know, leaving that was really hard because we had the business. I really loved him, but I knew deep down that that's not the country that I wanted to be in for the rest of my life. So yeah, coming home was really tough and I think for the longest time actually I felt as though, you know, that was in my past and that I can't revisit that chapter. Mm. But actually last week I booked return flights to Italy for all of August. Yeah. So yeah, it's like it's just clicked. I don't know why, but it's just clicked that I can actually still have that as part of my life, and I've got so many friends over there that- Mm, you don't have to close the whole chapter down. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know why, but I'd kind of mentally blocked it and- Mm now I'm just so excited to go back and have it as part of my, my life and my story again, which is- Yeah really exciting. That's cool. W- was that a grief thing maybe? Yeah. I think so. Yeah, me too. Yeah, and it, it took a while to get over that and, I guess, process that. Definitely. Yeah. De- well, it was just a totally different life, and then coming back to Australia- Mm like, everything was different. I've tried to explain it to so many people, but from the moment you open your eyes in the morning you're speaking a different language. Mm. Mm. The food you eat is different. The brands in your fridge and cupboard are different. Yeah. You drive on the different side of the road. Mm. Yeah. You know? Like, there's at no point of, of your day is it relatable to how you spend time here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Like, it's- It's very... And your relationships are different. You know, it's a different culture. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not like you and I catching up for a coffee. It, you... We talk about very different things- Sure to what they do. So yeah, it was, it was honestly like- Can, can you give us an example? an alternate world. What, what, what are the different things you talk about there compared to here? Oh, for me, it... You know me, I'm, I'm such a people person. Going over to someone's house and just having lunch together or a coffee in Northern Italy, in the Dolomites where I was, very different to, you know, the Tuscany and Rome and, um, Amalfi Coast that most people- Yeah think about Italy. Yeah. Mm. Up north, I'd say they're very closed. Yeah. Very close-minded in, in some aspects. They're very traditional. Um, the home is very much for the family. Yeah. So although I had beautiful friends, I was very, very rarely invited to their house. Wow. Yeah. It was just not... And, like, that's how we get to know each other, right? Yeah. Like, that's how you feel close to someone, because you invite them into your world, and- Yeah and you're proud of your home. You know, it's a social thing as well. Like- Yes. Yeah we have open plan living and, you know- Are they all super driven over there? Like, is it, like, head down, bum up, like everyone's trying to, like, hustle for work? They work- Do you- They work really hard. Yeah. They work really hard. Okay. Like, work is probably their nu- Work and family is their number one. Okay. I mean, there's obviously great things as well. Yeah. Like, my God, they're outside every spare chance they get. I loved that. On the weekends, every family was out hiking. Oh, that's cool. Mm. Like, that doesn't happen here. Mm. You know? I've got a question burning. Yeah? Circling back to the business element, you said that, um, your ex had repaid that bill, and he's obviously doing really well now. How does that land for you? Because you were a part of that initial growth. When you have to say goodbye to something, 'cause I'm sure there's people listening that have been a part of growing a business in the early days, had to step away for whatever reason- Yeah and then, you know, that business goes on to do really well. How do you heal from that? Like, obviously you don't feel like a failure, but you didn't get to reap the rewards of the hard work. How does that land? That's another great question. No one's ever asked me that. I don't, I don't think about it. Yeah. Like, I just- Mm. He, he's, he deserves that. Like, he, to this day, is one of the hardest-working people I've ever met, and yeah, he absolutely well and truly deserves that. Yeah. And, like, it was my... I always thought, "It's my decision to walk away." Yeah. It's not like we broke up for another reason. You know, God, if anyone deserves success, it's him. And I know that my time will come, and I'm happy doing my own thing, and I'm, you know, enjoying what I do, and I just think- Like the happiness that I have coming back to Australia and being with my family and my friends and feeling the confidence to go after what I wanna do now here- Yeah without the limitations of, you know, that culture and that language and, you know- Yeah it's, it's totally different. Like, I just... I wouldn't, I wouldn't swap that for the world. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Fair enough. Mm. Mm. All right. You've spent 15 years in hosp- all those things. Yeah. Yeah. Hospitality Yeah. E-com, fashion, um, aviation, construction. Many people, they pick a lane and they stay in it. Um- we probably wouldn't say that about you, right? No. So, so what's driving you to keep moving? Yeah. It's my worst nightmare to do the same thing every single day. Like- Yeah. Okay and I found that HR was very much like that. Yeah. Because, uh, you're just so restricted, I suppose. You know, you've got your function and that's what you're known for and that's what you do, and I just found that I enjoyed the strategy more of, and connecting the people to the strategy- Yeah of like how we can achieve it together I think that going to uni and, and doing a business degree was great because it, you can apply it so broadly to anything. Oh, yes. So although I didn't really love uni, it's definitely given me, like opened the doors. Stairway. Yeah, because I can apply it to anything, and that's why I think I feel confident to, like, let's try this, or let's go down this road. Yeah. Because I think everything I've learned, I can apply it in some way- Yeah to the next thing. So yeah, it doesn't really worry me to kind of try a whole bunch of different things. It doesn't scare me in the same way it probably does other people. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And, and is that why you've landed, um, I guess with the talent agency now because you can apply- Yes all of those different things, and you're, I guess, intellectually, energetically stimulated- Yeah each day because of the difference, and this is almost a, a perfect container for- Oh for, for that part of you. Is that- Absolutely a reasonable observation? When I finished up working for, uh, my client in aviation, I took some time off 'cause I, um, had a personal... I had an ectopic pregnancy, and I had a couple months off after that, and I took that time to really reflect and go, "Okay, what do I wanna do? What do I love more than anything?" So at the time, ChatGPT was obviously what everyone used. Mm. I put into ChatGPT my resume. Yeah. What I love doing, what I don't like doing, and, like, my dream day. Mm. And for some reason, it kept spitting back talent management. Wow. Because of the connection to people, um, you know, being a cheerleader for people. Yep. Wanting to see their own growth, uh, wanting to help them on their way, and I, the more I kept on thinking about it, I was like, "Actually, it's exactly the same as HR." There's, you know, contract review, negotiation. You're, in terms of recruitment, you're trying to find the right person for the right role. Mm. So it's the right brand or the right opportunity, you know, for a person that I care about and I've- Yeah got a relationship with. Yeah. Um, so it's actually, it's weird j- the correlation between them. Mm. Between the two, without having to performance manage anyone, which is great. Yeah. Yeah, you get the freedom. Yeah. But ChatGPT really pulled through. Yeah. Wow. There you go. Right? It's getting better. So, so just curious then, what, what do you think's been the, the biggest lesson for you in business, life, about yourself, about being able to pivot and change lanes consistently like that? Just doing it with good people. That's, that's probably my one takeaway. Right. I've, yeah, in everything that I have done- The things I've said yes to, it's been with really good people. And I, I've never wanted to find myself in a business or in a, in a relationship with someone that, you know, I don't respect or I don't think has integrity. Yeah. And I think all the things that I have done, I've, you know, I've, I've picked really great people, really great friends. Uh, I'm fortunate that within my own friend network, most of them own businesses, and I fully believe in what they do, so it's very easy for me to recommend their services and- Yeah and vice versa. Yeah. So I think if you are very deliberate with who you spend your time with, because I think it- Hmm it has to affect how people view you. You know, who's in your inner circle. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I've always believed that. So yeah, I guess I'm pretty ruthless with who I spend time with and, you know, who I would recommend and things like that, and it makes everything easier. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Unapologetically too, by the sounds of it. Yeah. Yeah. And it gives me the confidence to- Yeah go for it because they know, they, they know me, they know my skillset, they know that I'm, well, hopefully capable. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, you know what? What have you got to lose if it doesn't work? Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. You just start again Hmm. So five years in Italy. Mm-hmm. An award-winning restaurant in the Dolomites, event activations with Porsche and Audi. Mm-hmm. Um- Just a few big names there just a few things. Yeah, yeah. Just a little name drop. Yeah. How did that chapter actually sharpen your commercial instincts? Hmm. Yeah, that's, that's a good question again. Um, look, being in Europe is totally different to, I think, the business world here. Totally, yeah. Yeah. You know, the, the brands over there are quite literally legacy. Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, they've been around for a really long time. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, same goes with generational wealth. Mm. So a lot of my friends over there, you know, I'd meet them and just think, you know, normal person, great, but, you know, they're sixth generation hotelier and- Yeah have- Yeah, yeah ski lodges and- Yeah you know, and I'm just like- It's a different way of living "I'm Miranda from a cattle property in Queensland," you know? Yeah. It's a totally different world. So yeah, business over there was very different. Uh, it definitely relied on relationships. Mm. Uh, and I was fortunate that my, uh, ex had great relationships with, uh, Porsche and Audi prior because he had worked at Michelin star restaurants, and over there there's a lot of, um, partnerships with, you know, the high luxury brands- Yes. Yes and Michelin star restaurants. So we had an in thankfully. Mm. Uh, but I definitely learnt to maintain and I guess manage those, um, in a really great way, and then they ended up reaching out to us, um, because we had this beautiful restaurant and the doors all opened. Mm. And it, it was quite a beautiful looking venue. We actually won the 2017 World Architecture Awards in hospitality- Oh, wow. Wow for the design. It was stunning. Wow. I remember seeing a few photos. Yeah, it was stunning. So they would actually drive the new releases down from Germany through Austria, down to us, uh, in the Dolomites, and drive the cars into the restaurant- Wow for their opening nights. It was- Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Because interesting fact as well, all of those big car brands actually, um, test their cars in the Dolomites because of the- Oh, because of the winding roads the roads- Ah, okay the ice in the winter, the like it's- Oh, yeah yeah, so a lot of the times, you know how you see those weird wraps? Yes. It's like white and black and speckled so that you can't see what the car is. Oh yes, yeah. So you'd see them going through all the time. Yeah. But yeah, in, in Europe, um, very, very different, I would say. Yeah. You definitely have to work your butt off to get their respect, particularly as someone coming in- Yeah from Australia. Yeah. Yeah. And with that, 'cause you've already sort of mentioned that, like, the, the conversations that you're having with people over there is very different to what you would be doing here. Yeah. What did those relationships look like that you were able to get such a great result, um, with those partnerships? To be honest, I think I applied, like, the Australian strategy to it. Yeah? Right. Okay. You know? I fucking- Like, "She'll be right." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as in... No, as in, you know, I'm very friendly and approachable. Yeah, okay. Yeah. That definitely didn't work for every person over there- Sure. Yeah because some of them- Yeah were like, "Why is she wanting to hug me?" Like, you know? Yeah. Yes. You know, like, if you've seen someone, like I'm just a hugger, I'm a really friendly person Yeah. Um, but I just found that I was so different to everybody else they were doing business with- Stood out. Mm-hmm so I stood out. Yeah. Yeah, okay. And I was making such an effort to, to learn German, so in the Dolomites I actually speak German first, then Italian. Okay. Not many people know that. Yeah. Um, but I was making such an effort to assimilate with them, you know? I was, I was trying to learn German, I was, you know, studying l- as much as I could, I was considering doing a masters in, in Innsbruck, in Austria so that I... Because over there you basically have to have a masters. Oh. They don't- They look at you- They will not hire you if you've just- got a bachelor's degree. Yeah. Right. Wow. Yeah, it was very, very different. Mm. You've got to do substantially amount, like, more study to get a job in marketing, accounting, anything. Mm. Yeah, wow. So they could see that I was really putting in the effort to, you know, stand out, get their respect, that sort of thing. But, um- Yeah yeah. I think as well, having fun. Mm. Because when I was over there, I d- I definitely have so many great memories of, you know, going to their events or their meetings and making sure that it wasn't just, you know, a meeting where you sit and have coffee and stuff. It's got to be banter there. It was like, "Oh, my God, I've never been to this." And like, for example, if I was in Munich, "I'd never been to this, you know, um, restaurant. Do you wanna go with me?" And, like, I'd pay for them and then, and then it'd be ex- some, like, experience for them as well. An experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they're seeing it with an Australian for the first time. Mm. And I don't know, I just like to have fun with it rather than just business all the time. The human element of it. Yeah. Yeah. Which didn't work always, but- Mm I think- Worth a shot it worked for me anyway. What was comfortable for you, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you find your people, right? Yeah, yeah. One of the things that y- you've said is that the, the biggest breakthrough for you was realizing that nothing's permanent. True. Yeah. And, and so when did that belief kick in for you? And then was there, I don't know, a specific time or failure even that really, um, forced that mindset shift in you? It's funny, I think it would've been about 2020. I remember listening, 'cause I used to be obsessed with business podcasts, like, obsessed with them, and you would probably remember that from, like, that- Yes that era of my life. I do. And, um, I mean, I still am, but not, can't not fall asleep to one. You know? Like, I've- Yeah I've got healthier boundaries now. Yeah. Anyway, there was this, um, podcast that I listened to, and I still can't remember who it was, but this guy was being interviewed, and he said something like, "White, I'm a male." This is his experience, obviously, "I'm a white male. I have parents. I've got siblings. If I try to do something, what's the worst that can happen? I move in with my parents." Like, it- I'm so fortunate to have, you know, the support of family and friends around me. What's the worst that, that could happen at the end of the day? Like, is that really so bad? Yeah. Like not re- I don't know. Ever since I heard that- Mm it just clicked to me that, well, what does it matter if I have to move in with... Like, thankfully I haven't had to do that. Yeah. But do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, it's just- Yeah why, why are we taking everything so seriously when, I mean, that's a very fortunate position to s- you know, still have parents and- Yeah Yeah, yeah um, have a relationship with them that they would welcome me in, in their home. But I don't know, I just, I just kept thinking, like, "What's the worst that could happen? That I'm living with my sister or my mom or like-" Yeah. Yeah. It'll work out. It's not so scary. It's scary, but it's not world ending. No. Yeah. Yeah. And I just kept thinking like, I've also got the skills. Like, God, if the worst came to worst, I could go work in a cafe or- Yeah you know? Yeah. Like, I'm not un- unemployable. I could- Yeah do anything. Yeah. I don't need much, and yeah. Mm. And I don't know, it just made me feel like I can give anything a shot ever since then. And so that was very liberating for you, very freeing and- Yeah. You know how everyone has like something they hear and it just like clicks? Yeah, yeah. Kind of helps something tick. That was my thing. So- That was it so do you, do you not have fear now because of that, or do you still go through fear with new things and big j- Still go through fear. Yeah. Uh, particularly because I always really wanna do well with whoever I'm working with. Yeah. As in, and particularly now with having, representing people, like it's deeply important to me that they feel like I'm doing a good job. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know? The last thing I ever want is to feel like I'm doing a subpar, um, you know, job at, at representing them and elevating them and obviously like generating a long-term, um, income for them. So I think that's probably my driver, but my fear is that- Yeah, what if I drop the ball or- Yeah. Yeah what if I have a bad day and- Yeah. But at the end of the, at the end of the day, you just have to keep reminding yourself nothing's life or death with this stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, you send an email and be like, "I'm so sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday." Transparency, right? It- Yeah. Just be really honest honesty, transparency. Mm-hmm. It's not life and death. It'll be okay. Yeah. So i- is there any, I don't know, process that you work through to overcome that fear or is it simply almost a subconscious realization that, um, it's not gonna be a catastrophe, I'll be okay even if it might be uncomfortable? Yeah. I probably have a lot of things that I do. I think I'm, I'm self-aware enough to know when I'm getting to that point- Wow rather than being overwhelmed and freaking out. I think I've learned enough that enough now. Um- But yeah, what helps me is I kind of pretend that I'm a client, and I just think what would I tell them? What's the first action I would advise them to take? And i- is it writing everything down that you have to do? Wow. Just getting it out of your brain. Ah. Is it, you know, understanding that you're just seeing a meter in front of you rather than looking up and seeing that everything else is great, it's just this one thing, you know? Mm-hmm. So I think that has helped me a lot. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so to be clear, it's getting the mental loop almost out of your head and down physically onto- Yeah paper, either keyboard or writing. Keyboard writing or sharing it, so I've, I've- Yeah, okay I see a, yeah, I see a therapist every couple of weeks who I love. Yeah. Awesome. Um, to me it's the same as going to the gym and, you know, working on- My gym. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. She's phenomenal. I've- Gotta get it out. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I've got really great, uh, friends and family. My sister I talk to every single day, so I think getting it out somehow so it's not just ruminating- Yeah Yeah is probably the biggest key. And, and so just on that, do you think business owners, founders, entrepreneurs, do they do that enough? Or is that something- No that in your observation we need to do better? No. Mm-hmm. Business owners are so lonely. I think that's why I feel like I provide so much value to the people that I do work with, because- And you both would know, like, it, it is very lonely. Mm-hmm. And sometimes even with a partner, you don't wanna share the burden or perceived burden- Yeah because you want them to think, you know, they're doing really well. You have to keep the separation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But, like, you don't want them to be concerned- Right that, yeah, that you haven't got it, or particularly if you're, like, the sole provider of the family, right? Yes. Mm. You... I hear this a lot, mostly from men, because I think that's just the way that it is at the moment, but they don't wanna share- Yeah their concerns or their worries or what's keeping them up at night with their wife because they never want their, their wife or their partner to think, "Oh my goodness," like, "Are we okay?" Yeah. "Can we afford the mortgage?" Y- Yeah. Yeah. So it is- It's almost that fear to trickle. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, sometimes you don't wanna share it with friends 'cause you don't want them to think that you're not capable or they doubt you. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So it can be a really, really lonely place. Mm. So it's almost that Brene Brown strength through vulnerability kind of thing- Mm. Yeah that particularly men need to develop more. Is that- For sure. Yeah? Absolutely. I wish that more men opened up to each other, like to their friends- Yeah and said... 'Cause I, even in my own life, I know that there's a couple of, um, friend- male friends that are in a tricky part of business where- Mm you know, like, that sweet sp- I think it's, like, level one, level two, where you kind of, like, "Do I hire someone?" Yeah. But that, y- you know that, that capacity issue? Yeah. Yeah. And they're not really sure what to do, and they feel like they have to work it out on their own. But at the end of the day, that's a problem that hundreds of thousands of people- Yeah have had to solve. Yes. Totally, yeah. So if you just talk it through with someone- Mm. Yeah there's logical steps that they can take, but they just- Yeah carry it alone. Yes. Mm. So that's important to you, that business owners have a place to go to- Yeah to talk. Mm. Absolutely. And, and ask questions and find out from people above them. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. And that was, you know, one of the reasons why I got involved with Sunshine Coast Young Chamber. Mm. Yeah. So that people- Have a space you know, early on in their career- Yeah could have somewhere to go. And it was actually so lovely and comforting to go to an event. Mm. And some of the people would come up to me and say, "How you going?" And instead of saying, "Oh, I'm good. How are you?" I actually wanted to purposely share, "I've had a big day. Like, this has happened." Mm. "I'm feeling overwhelmed," so that then they felt safe to do the same with me. Sure, yeah. And so then I found naturally over the, you know, the following couple of months, they would approach me and say like, "I'm really feeling this at the moment." Mm. Like, "Do you have any advice?" Mm. And that's, that's the kind of community that you want. Yeah. You know? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Now, shifting back to the agency- Yes so most agencies come from the creator world, and most brand consultancies come from that corporate world. Mm-hmm. And you're genuinely fluent in both of those worlds- Mm-hmm which is fabulous. So what does that actually look like in practice when you're sitting across from a brand and a talent in the same room? Yeah. So you're right. Most of the agencies that are in Australia anyway are very much creator-led. Yeah. So I just feel that they didn't have... When I was looking at, obviously researching to figure out is this viable, is this something that I should- Yeah you know, put my time and effort to? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause I already was feeling very passionate about it. Yes. Um, I could see that, yeah, the agencies are run by creators. They didn't have that commercial lens- Mm which is missing. Mm-hmm. And, you know, the creator, um, industry is set to be like $300 million in the next couple of years. And I think, you know, even just as a user on social media, how often do you see someone promoting a product? Like, once off, and it looks- So staged and unnatural. It's not organic and it just, it gives you the ick almost. The nail- Like the opposite effect the nail-clicking ones. Mm. It's just, you know? Like, it just isn't, it's just not... I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Does that work for anybody? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But they still do it. Yeah. And so I think every time I kept seeing something like that, I, I just kept coming back to, you know, these long-term partnerships where it is more of an organic, uh, you know, it's, it's product woven into their life. Mm. So for me, when I've started working with, um, the talent that I have now, I sit down and I literally say to them, "What are you spending your money on? Like, what are you re- repeat purchasing?" Like, that's, that's where we start. We're not going off- Yeah looking at, you know, I wanna work... Like, yes, obviously we have goals and, and we're working towards- Mm that strategically. But to start with, what are you actually spending your hard-earned cash on now? And what would you t- like, recommend to a friend? Yeah. Because that's where we'll start. Yes. And so that has been already quite successful in the couple of weeks that I've started. So- Amazing. Yeah. But, like, things that they didn't even know, you know? Even yesterday I was, um, messaging someone and she'd posted on, uh, the client. Mm. She'd posted on her story that she'd been to Yochi 131 times. I messaged her and I was like- Wow "When I asked what you're spending your money on, this is what I meant." Yeah. Yeah. Hello Yochi. And she was like, "Oh my God, reach out to them." I was like, "Done." Yeah. And I had mutual, so it was, you know, great to kick that off. But yeah, it's, it's just, it's that natural partnership rather than it being... I just think it's false. Yes. You know? Well, 'cause people know, I think at this stage now, we're all very aware- Mm when something's being advertised. Yes. Like- Yeah and it's like, "Oh, I don't wanna buy that 'cause you got paid to put that on your..." Yeah, exactly. I don't actually genuinely know if that's a real product that's usable. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I think the other driver for me was, you know, the fact that Meta have Facebook and Instagram. Mm. I just keep coming back to the thing that, you know, tomorrow they could say, "Yep, it's gonna be $5,000 a month- Yeah for businesses, creators to have a profile." If all they have is a following on Instagram, their income, everything is gone from tomorrow. Yep. So true. So I've been treating them as a business and so what we are doing behind the scenes is setting up, um, a whole bunch of different strategies- Mm so that they can share their, their following across different platforms, having an email subscriber list- Mm so that they're actually adding value that way and they're not at risk- Yeah. Yes of, or, or how often do you see someone post and say, "I've had my account disabled for no reason," or, "Someone's reported me"? Oh, that's happened to so many people. Yeah. Imagine if your sole income for your family is dependent on Instagram- Wow and then it's, and they, Instagram don't even have a contact center. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, "Nah." So- Yep like, that just breaks my heart. Yeah, it, it's that one is the dangerous, most dangerous number in business, right? Yes. Yeah. One platform like that. Exactly. Yeah. So diversifying that is very quickly one of our priorities- Yeah once we start working together. Yeah. Mm. Yeah The Business Game is proud to partner with HighLevel, the all-in-one CRM and marketing platform built for growing businesses. With CRM funnel, website and course builders, marketing automations, email builders, and so much more, HighLevel software will drive your customer retention and your profits through the stratosphere. And HighLevel is fully white label, which means you can brand the platform and mobile app with your logo and company colors, and then resell it to your customers for a monthly subscription. Ready to go HighLevel? Click on the link below to begin your 14-day free trial. Right. Well, you launched Those Who Dare Agency, you've said prematurely. Yes. So what was it, do you think, that forced your hand, um, you know, that made you make that call? And I guess going back, looping back to the fear thing, what were you most afraid of in doing that? Yeah. So premature- It's funny when you say that, isn't it? Launch- launch prematurely. Yeah. Um, so how that all came about was I could very quickly see that having a talent agency, talent and, you know, brand growth strategy- Yeah um, agency, it's very administrative heavy. Mm. It's a lot of emails. Mm. Yeah. It... Like, I have a lot of emails by myself, and in the last couple of weeks, that's somehow, like, quadrupled. So again, prematurely, I was not prepared, prepared for that right now. Yeah. But, um, I guess when I started thinking about it and the longevity of it- Yeah and the kind of business and lifestyle that I wanted, because I do wanna have a family one day- Yeah but I still wanna have a business. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I have basically designed this whole business around that future in mind. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. And it basically kept coming back to, okay, I need to figure out a way to streamline, automate as much as I possibly can, uh, while kind of, I guess, redefining how agents can approach, you know, that relationship, because I don't wanna do what any other agency has done because I wanna be different, and I think I have a different commercial lens to different things. Yeah. So, um, when I started looking at how I could optimize things, you know, AI was the most obvious choice. Yeah. And I really wanted to do a course because I love learning by doing. And I guess with AI in particular, I was really, really hesitant to just, you know, download a course and do it myself without that individualized context to my business- Yes because of the issues with security- Yes and the access to, say, client data or my own data. Yeah. So I was really hesitant to just do a course and do it in my own time. Yeah. And I kept looking online, and really great things out there, for sure. But then I looked at the cost, and I'm like, okay, I'm also a startup. Like, I've... You know, I advise my clients, like, if, if you can be scrappy, be scrappy. Yeah. Where are you spending your money? Yeah. Where are you spending your money? Yes. Yeah. Like, question every dollar. Yeah. And I, I don't know, I just kept thinking, there has to be a better way. And something that I've always done, which, um, you can take this however you wanna take it, I've always thought if I wanna do something I then think, who's gonna pay for me to do that? Mm. And by that, I mean, if I wanna do a course, or if I wanna- Mm. Mm go to a conference- Yeah who will it benefit for me to go- Yeah learn that, add that value back to their business, or, you know, like, I've always thought that way. And I just got to think, "Okay, so who could I get to pay for me to do this course?" And then I thought, "What if I put on an event and get, like, find the AI expert that I want to learn from?" Yeah. See what that costs, and then thankfully I have a really great network here on the Sunshine Coast, and I was like, I know all the vendors that, you know, I could do it with. So a friend of mine just opened up a Vani Hotel in Mooloolaba. Yep. Uh, so we've locked in a conference space for that. It's actually next week, and it sold out pretty quickly. Wow. Um, but we've got this beautiful AI expert coming in from Cairns, and there's gonna be 40 other female business owners in the room. So not only do we get to network and, you know, get to know them, but I obviously get to- Have his brain course learn Claude, and Yeah, and she's gonna actually apply it to our businesses. And I've also got, um, a, a really good friend of mine, she's a, uh, employment lawyer. Oh, yeah. Francesca Molina. That makes sense. Yeah. She's brilliant. But she's gonna come in and also present on, you know, how you need to be mindful of AI, not using it for things like employment agreements- Yeah contracts- Yeah things like that, because, like, why would you put your business at that much risk? Yeah. You know? And then we've got, um, another really great friend of mine owns an accounting firm, so then she's gonna come in and talk about the importance of knowing your numbers and how we can leverage AI so that you know them every single day. Yeah. Which will be amazing 'cause we're creating a dashboard so that you kind of have a pulse check. Yeah. Like everyone in the business walk away with having, like, a dashboard. Yeah, nice. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you launched- So- because you needed the course. So, well, I wasn't planning on launching. It just kind of, uh, occurred to me that the day that we were launching, I'd be stupid not to do it with- Yeah the Those Who Dare agency. Yeah. So, you know, I just got o- got out my phone and filmed a, "Hi, I'm Miranda, and I'm launching this," and that's kind of where it's been ever since. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Have you had a good, like, turnaround from that? Like, have you seen the numbers uptick- Yeah because of this event? Yeah. Like, it seems like a really great- Oh, yeah way to launch, in my opinion. I think I started with maybe 400 followers, and it's, yeah, already grown to maybe 600, 700. And are you growing those on an email list as well? I need to be. Yeah. It was either say those that can't do, teach or something. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I know everything I should be doing. Oh, no. Yeah. And it sits in my mind every day. Yeah. But yeah, one- So, so- one thing at a time just on that then, as the agency scales, where are you gonna start hiring? What would that look like? Mm. Everyone's asking me this question. I would love to have it as lean as possible. Mm-hmm. I want a business that I can run from anywhere. Yeah. Because like, you know, if an opportunity comes up, I'm gonna take it. Yeah. Like, if it means, you know, let's go spend a month in Italy next month, like, I- making that decision was so easy because I thought nothing... It doesn't affect anyone. Yeah. I can do what I do from anywhere I think I definitely need to hire someone at some point, and that's becoming pretty obvious. Mm-hmm. But I think I need to sit in the pain of knowing what those friction points are- Mm. Yeah to really understand what kind of person I need. Yeah. Yeah, or the support. Because I think, yeah, 'cause I think a lot of people hire too quickly, and then they haven't really matched where the gaps are. And, and also knowing, like, where your next growth period is gonna come from. So- Yeah although that might be a s- a sore point now, you know, that might not be a sore point in six months. Yeah, yeah. But then you've still got a full-time employee. Yeah. So I'll probably try to use contractors intermittently as I need to. Like, I, I messaged a friend this morning who's a software engineer, and I said, "I need your help." Like, can you... 'Cause I was working on things, but I'm just like, I think I need your- Support yeah, yeah. I'll pay you to do it quicker for me. Yeah. So I think I'll just kind of reach out to those people as I need. Yeah. Um, but I, yeah. I, I mean, I'd also love to hire my sister, if I'm being completely honest. Like, if I think about a business that I wanna build and be proud of- Yeah my sister's just had, um, my first niece, and I'm obsessed with her, and she's in that phase of life of, oh my goodness, I need to go back to corporate soon- Yeah because her maternity leave will run out, and I just c- I just keep thinking, I'm gonna build a business, I want it to be able to, to be because I can support myself and my family and friends. Yeah. And I think... And she's got a brilliant skill set that, and we've worked together many times, and we're just great together. So I'm thinking, you know, if I'm gonna build a business that I love, why shouldn't it be, you know, to helping the people that I love as well? So that's probably one of the things I would love to do- Mm so that she can feel like she can, you know, work two or three days from home, remote, and still sp- spend plenty of time with my niece. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. So, so other than people, then AI, we've mentioned it a few times. Yeah. And we always ask on the show, right? We do, yeah. Yeah. So talk about business and AI. No. No, no. So w- what are some of the things you're doing with AI, some of the AI programs, automations or- Yeah. I mean, it probably isn't gonna shock you, 'cause I'm sure everyone is doing it, but yeah, connecting all of the platforms that I've got so that, you know, ev- everything's triggered and- Triggers it into Claude? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm using Claude- Yeah and Notion- Yeah um, mostly. Yeah. And everything else is just kind of plugging into that. But yeah, just the, the possibilities with that is endless. Have you found just doing that exercise alone in the cowork space and plugging in, how much time would you say that's saving you already? Uh, I mean, cowork is great, but it's when you get into the skills. Okay. Oh, okay. That's, that's where you really unlock a lot of time saving. Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah. Even, like, the first one that I, um, built, and this is what the course is next week, but the first one that I built was just- Um, giving me, I call it the morning brief. And so every morning at 6:00 AM I get an email sent to me, and it'll say, it'll go through all of my inbox, my Notion to-do list, what's upcoming for the next week, and it'll basically highlight, okay, these are your priorities. This is what you can probably disregard, but nice-to-haves. Um, these are some great, uh, sorry, these are some emails that really need your attention, and these are meetings that are coming up that you probably need to prep for. Wow. Like even that alone- Mm as someone who has a busy mind- Mm that- Just having it just- It has helped so, so, so much. Even like it'll pick up like, uh, phishing emails. So like obviously being a talent manager- Oh, yeah I'll get so many emails from people that are just scams. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, my email is on, is linked to quite a few different people on Instagram. Yeah. And it'll pick it up and say, "Although this sounds great, like just, just flagging that this is probably not correct." Oh, nice. That's handy. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. Rather than doing it all yourself. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Mm. Yeah. So When you were talking about that, the premature launch, sounds like it kind of worked in your favor. Mm-hmm. Um, a lot of volume, but then with that comes, you know, I would imagine a bit of pressure as well. Yeah. Uh, especially if you weren't- Hmm prepared. Hmm. Um, so what's the real risk of signing on too many clients before your systems are ready, do you think? I have learnt this lesson before. And I live in fear of making it every single day. Yeah. Um, oh, goodness. Yeah, when I first started the consulting business, I took on too much- Mm out of a scarcity mindset. Yeah. Hmm. I think going in, I thought, "Oh, this will be such a slow burn. It'll take me 12 months until I can really probably pay myself." And then luck- like luckily, I think it was in like a, a month, maybe five, six weeks, I had already locked in like 40 hours of, you know, consulting time a week- Yeah so that I actually didn't have time to work on the business, which wasn't great, but yeah, that, I learnt that lesson very quickly, because then I had no breathing room. Yeah. And quite a lot of that was in-person- Mm. Yes consultation, so- Mm-hmm like with their teams and- Yeah and things like that. Which I loved, 'cause I love that interaction, but it just meant that- Can take away I didn't have... Yeah, I just didn't have that freedom and flexibility of a business that I could kind of do from anywhere and still provide the same amount of value. Mm. So I definitely don't wanna do that again. I, well, had three clients, and then I've signed one, well, not signed one, sorry. They've committed last night, and they're a huge client, so I've, in my head, I've kind of decided, "Okay, that's it, Miranda. Until we have sorted out our systems and processes- Yeah we can't take on- Hmm any more." Yeah. Um, which is, again, a good problem to have, but yeah, I definitely don't want to make the mistake of not understanding my capacity- Yeah and then saying yes from a scar- you know, a place of scarcity- Hmm Yeah and then not being able to deliver. Yeah. Sure. 'Cause that's, that's my worst nightmare. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, my, my re- my reputation, I've spent so long working to where it is now. The last thing I wanna do is- Yeah damage it by moving too fast- Yeah and, and yeah. Yeah. Saying yes too often. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. It, it's an interesting dilemma though, isn't it? Mm. For especially in that startup phase, 'cause what happens, Miranda, if next week another really big- I know attractive offer comes along, right? The temptation of the carrot. Yeah. And oh, man. I know. And, you know, that's a lot more cash, and so how are you gonna hold the line? Uh, I think that's actually really easy for me because I only wanna work with people that I really love and, like, I'm really excited to work with, but I see their potential. Yeah. So yes, someone might come across, and I have had a few people reach out, and yeah, it would be great to represent them and it would look cool, but unless I really love everything that they're putting out into the world- Yeah like, I also kind of see that as a reflection of me. Yeah. Like, if I'm representing them- Yeah I'm, I'm standing behind them, and I, I do think my reputation, at least locally, has some value. Mm. So that's almost my qualifier- Yeah. Yeah is- Okay you know, how do they operate? Can I, can I see what their values are just from- Mm their, you know, their profile or how they- Yeah present themselves? Mm-hmm. And do they align with mine? Yeah. 'Cause if they do, then that, that's an easier consideration. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Mm. So what do you think the end goal is then for Those Who Dare? Like, in your mind, how are you seeing that future? That's a great question. Haven't given it much thought. I've had a few people ask me this- and I think, I think people expect me to say, "Have a huge agency- Mm that represents people all around the world" and I don't know if that's what I want. Yeah. Purely because- Yeah. Uh, I think living in Italy, funnily enough coming back, I think living in Italy has really anchored, uh, what's important to me. Mm. Because over there they do work so hard. Mm. And it's at the expense of living a good life. Mm. Yeah. And a good life, I don't mean... They could, they could buy anything they wanted, and they did, but they didn't have great relationships, and they didn't- Mm you know, a lot of the time they worked a lot of time over there. Yeah. The husbands and wives worked together, like in the hotel or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. They spend their entire lives talking about work. Mm. Yeah. And I just think that's not, that's not the life that I want. Like I, I wanna have a, a balanced life where I can, you know- Yeah go to Italy for 12, you know, 12 months or- Yeah one month or- Yeah whatever it might be, and have experiences. Mm. So whatever I'm able to do, however I'm able to scale it- Yeah that's streamlined and manageable- Yeah I'll, I'd like to get to that point. And at a point that it's too much, then I'm happy to pull back. Mm. Like more than happy to pull back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. You wanna, yeah, looking for that balance. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. So what does it look like then for someone, um, who you're representing? What sort of things can they expect? So I'm approaching talent management in a very different way. Again, meeting them where they're at at the moment, and there's obviously those, you know, shorter campaigns and things like that, but we are working on establishing really great relationships and a reputation for them with brands. Yeah. And then breadcrumbing, you know, the big whale, I, I- is what we're trying to say, like in their organic content. But for me, it's actually working towards something that's gonna give them a really long-term income. So I sit down with them in our strategy, initial strategy and onboarding sessions and say, you know, "What kind of life do you want? Not, you know, next week, you know, 12 months, five years, 10 years. What does that look like? Is it a family?" You know, a lot of the time they'll say, "I wanna have a business." And it's like, okay, then it's sitting down with them and understanding what interests them. Like- Yeah you know what I mean? Mm. If you wanna own a business, it's 'cause you're interested or- Yes you're talented at it or- Yeah you're gifted at it, whatever it is. So although they don't have to have the answer, we can still be working towards giving them options. Mm. That's, that's the approach that I'm taking, like that really long-term partnership. Uh, I think that not just fulfills me, but it's giving them that confidence that everything that they're working towards now is going to, to build them, you know, something else that has, you know, long-term wealth or, you know, a legacy even. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So to... I, I guess to turn the mirror back on yourself, what does it look like for you in 12 months? I have streamlined everything. Um, yeah, great question. I think- Working with really great people, and I really wanna work on strengthening the relationships with the brands that I'm working with. Yeah. I think if we can have stronger relationships with them- Mm then it's, it, it's gonna equal a, a better outcome for both sides. Yeah. I think I'd, I'm obviously still very much focusing on, like, the business consulting, so I'm still- Yeah working with, um, a lot of clients, probably in your, like, your levels one to three mostly. Yes. Mm. Uh, I just love that. Like, that's a, almost a selfish, um, endeavor. Yeah. But just- Yeah. I, it's, I, it's, I don't know. It's just, it's funny. Like, getting into a room with a business owner and- Yeah you know, asking the questions that they've never been asked before, and, uh, you know, and they're like, "I've never thought of it like that," or, you know- Yeah when they're too in it to see. Yeah. So I would love to, yeah, I'd love to keep doing that and not- Be solely focused on the talent. I think I love, like 'cause they weave in so well together anyway. Yeah. So I'd love to, to have some kind of equal spread of those two things. Um, but further than that, I haven't really thought about it. I think I'm thinking about everyone else's business- Yeah and, you know, their strategy at the moment. Yeah. So I've kind of forgotten myself. Yeah. I probably need to- Well, will that change? Yeah. I was- Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I will. Interesting. Yeah. Like, I had a meeting this morning with my accountant, which was really great 'cause it made me feel like, okay, we're in, we're on the right track. Yeah. We've got some goals that we're working towards. I've got some clarity. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So that was good. Do you have a business mentor? I don't right now, but I have definitely in the past. Yeah, yeah. Uh, a lot of the people that I've worked for- Mm I still keep in contact. Oh, nice. And I'll send them a message and say, "Can I please bounce an idea off of you?" Yeah. Or- So you'll still have that out- outside, um- Yeah cheer squad- Mm Oh, absolutely sounding board group. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And there's, there's so many people that I deeply respect in business, and for different reasons. Like, it's not always- Yeah the same You know, it might not be that they're the most successful or- Yeah but maybe they have the best reputation for leading a team. Yeah. And I'll go to, I will go to that person specifically for that reason. Yeah. That makes sense. So I take, yeah, I take different things from different people that I've, you know, either I've been exposed to or I've worked for. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Including Cal, I call her sometimes. She does. God help her if I've had a couple of wines. That's when you get the best ideas. I know. She was like, "Whoa." That's where you make the hours. I remember at the last one I was like, "Hope Amanda calls me again." Yeah. That's when your, that's when your creativity comes out. Yeah, that's right. I was very honest. Yeah. So let's go back. So if, if a founder is sitting on an idea right now, um, but, you know, they're waiting for the right conditions, the right time, we're all waiting for b- to launch, what's an honest conversation that you could have with that person based on your experience with this premature launch that you've had? Oh, I've, I've had that conversation so many times. So yeah, like, I mean, when I started the consulting business initially, I would have people message me on Instagram and just say, "I've had this idea. You did this." I did this. I was just thinking. I was like, "Wow, you're one of those people." Yep. Um, but yeah, I've had so many people message me and say, "I've had this idea. I can't stop thinking about it. I have no idea where to start." Mm. "Can you tell me if it's even viable?" Yeah. And, you know, "What do I do?" And so I generally just say, "Let's catch up for a coffee and have a chat." And from there, I think probably the initial value that I give them is the confidence just to be like, "This is something." And I'm always honest, like, I'm never gonna pump their tires if I don't think that it's something that could go somewhere. Yeah. But yeah, I think that Having someone external, like not just a partner or a close friend say to you- Yeah this has, this has some traction, like, I think that this could really be something. Mm. You know, spend the next couple of weeks exploring it. Um, and then I generally just say, I'm like, "Go away, think about it," 'cause it generally is gonna be a big expense, time expense, financial expense. Yeah. If you're, if you're ready to go, let's go. 'Cause then they, they, once they know, like, I'm ready to invest in them, 'cause it is, like, it's very much investment in my time as well. Mm. Mm. Yeah. And once I'm in, I am definitely in. I'm so passionate about it, I, I just can't stop talking about, you know, opportunities they could go, go and, you know, chase or, "Have you thought about this revenue stream?" Or, "We could do this and partner with them," and- Mm. Yeah so I think, yeah, getting them excited at that point- Mm is probably the most important. Giving them the confidence and getting them excited. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause then the passion follows you through. It does. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Totally. Mm. Let's talk, uh, for a moment about your community involvement, because you've, you've been a director of Wishlist, which is a very big charity on the Sunshine Coast here. Yeah. You've also, uh, led the Sunshine Coast Young Chamber for- Mm-hmm for a number of years. So, y- you're someone who clearly invests in the community alongside business and, um, you know, what's the motivation for you behind that? Uh, probably two reasons. My grandpa was always in the community. He always volunteered for everything. He was the president of the show. He, you know, like, he was, he just was so generous with his time and his money, and that's just, my sister and I are just exactly the same. We just think everyone should be doing their bit to give back. Yeah. And I think if everyone picked something that they care about and they, you know, like- Yes you gave $10 to that a month, or, you know, you supported that event, God, the world would be so different. Yeah. Yes. If everyone just picked one thing that they could care about. Yeah. Mm. And I think that's probably my biggest driver, uh, has been my grandpa. Yeah. But then living in Italy, and again, sorry to bring it back to that. Yeah. But living in Italy, I was very isolated. Uh-huh. The c- you know, the culture and- Yeah the language, I felt very, very much alone. I had a great partner, don't get me wrong- Yeah I didn't have any community over there. Mm. And so when I moved back to Australia, I, I craved that, and I also didn't want anyone to ever feel the way that I did. And so when I... I moved back at the end of 2019, and in 2020, obviously the COVID came. Yes. And, um, but the Sunshine Coast saw so many people from Sydney and Melbourne, uh, moving here. And I kept hearing that people were feeling disconnected and that, you know, it's so hard to make friends here, and I don- So I think I was just really naturally drawn to something like the Young Chamber because it just felt like somewhere that you could go and you could rock up by yourself. Yeah. Everyone was friendly. Everyone was at the same kind of stage of life 'cause- Yeah I think when I moved back I was 27, and my friends were either settling down, you know, marriage and children and that sort of thing, or they were partying, and I wasn't in any of those- Yeah you know? Like I was- Yeah I was pretty heav- I was pretty confident and I was like, "Let's just like give this career thing a go." Like, I wanna get back in and, you know- Mm build something. And I just... There wasn't really anywhere else- Mm to go. So the Young Chamber was great in that respect. And then that's actually how I was introduced to Wishlist. A couple of the, um, Wishlist team went to one of our events, and we just got along so well and I learnt a lot more about the, the organization and what they do. And I just couldn't help but be drawn to it, and was actually... Someone asked me, like, "Why do you do so much with Wishlist?" And I realized that it was because when I, I think it was 2002, my grandma was in a head-on car collision in New- uh, New Zealand. Oh. And she spent nearly 12 months in hospital. Oh. And so my mom, my sister, and I had to basically, like, live in a, a hotel in Brisbane and look after her while my grandad and my dad had to keep working. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So when I was introduced to Wishlist and I realized that they help with accommodation, and I know Cal, you've even- I've, yeah benefited from Wishlist. Yep. They help with accommodation. They help with services and programs, and- They do so much they, it- Yeah. It's incredible like, we don't have enough time to talk about all the things- Yeah. No, we don't that they do. It is really cool. Yeah. But I just, yeah, like subconsciously I was, you know, pulled to- Makes sense yeah, to help them- Yeah because I just, I thought, "Wow, I've, I've actually had a personal experience of needing something like that." Mm. And yeah, I've been involved with them for five years, and yeah, nearly at every event, and I just, I just love it. And the people there, again, it comes back to working with good people. Yeah. Yeah. Like, everyone from the CEO to the, um, what do you call- The dogs the dogs. Yeah. They have therapy dogs. Yeah. Everyone from the CEO to the therapy dogs are just the most beautiful people. Mm. And, and I've also found that, like, the, the sponsors, like the local businesses that sponsor Wishlist, there's like a common thread of, you know, being a good person and- Yeah Yeah and giving back, and it's a, yeah, it's a no-brainer for me. Yeah. It fills up my cup. So j- just on that, you, it's an interesting little segue. I'm just curious about the transaction aspect of it, and not, well, I don't mean that in a, like, a negative way, but in- Yeah business we're transacting a, a good or a service for money. In charity, you're transacting money for almost a feeling of, of helping. Yeah. So- Yeah they're two very different outcomes. How, how have you found the difference between those two from a commercial sense? Yeah. Oh, I actually, I call it a little bit of a sabbatical. I spent six months last year leading the Give Me 5 campaign- Yeah which Wishlist is the beneficiary. Yeah. I found that it didn't differ very much in, in the fact that, you know, well, there's two types of people I feel that are connected to charities. There's the people that do it who've potentially been affected by something traumatic- Yeah um, or it's related to them somehow- Mm-hmm and they wanna give their, their time and money. And then there is potentially, like, a performative aspect of- Yeah. Yeah, okay. You know? Interesting. But I've seen that I can pick up very quickly which one it is. The second someone kind of starts talking about, "Well, you know, how many times will my logo be placed on the screen?" Or- How does it come back to me? Yeah. Yeah. What's the RO- If anyone ever says to me ROI when talking about a charity- I just think- Well, that's it. Like, it's, it's a feel yeah, they're not s- they're not signing next year. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like that's not what it's about. Yeah. Yeah. I just think, and to be fair, like, this is probably how it does differ. I think when giving your time and money to a charity, if you wanna leverage that moment, you leverage that moment. Don't expect the charity to be platforming you- Yeah. Mm every single second. If it's a business, that- that's different, right? Because they're saying, you know, "I'm purchasing your services." Yes. "And I expect this level of, you know"- Yes um, service or quality of, um, care or whatever it might be. But yeah, I think with charities, if that's what you're trying to get from it, I think the onus should be on the business to make the most of it. Yeah. You know, do some social content- Yes or, you know? Yes. Like, I think- Yeah that's probably the biggest difference in a business- Yeah exchange. I agree. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. So before we jump into the thi- the quick-fire round- Yes one final question for you. That's good. So you've named the agency Those Who Dare, which is such a great name. Yeah. Yeah. Um, for someone listening who wants to take that bigger risk, um, in their business or their life, uh, but just keeps pulling back, what's the actual first move, do you think? If they're, like, reaching out to me or just in this themselves? Just in general, I think. Let's go, let's go back. Let's go just in general. To be fair, I think it would be just having someone in your corner that you can share and talk with. Yeah. I think having someone validate- Get it out. Yeah that you trust, and, like, that, that can be hard because- Yes I know even in my own life, sometimes when you share your hopes and dreams and goals with someone- Mm they might not be supportive. They might be concerned. They m- not want you to fail or- Yeah, yeah. Yeah and they give advice of, "Oh, maybe, you know, don't aim so high," or d- like, they mean it out of love, but it doesn't- Yeah it's not what you need. They're projecting their own fear onto you kind of thing? Yes. Yeah. Yep. That makes sense. So, I think as long as you're making sure that you've got someone that you trust wholeheartedly that's- Mm and gonna give you that push when you need it. Yeah. You know? Like, how often do you turn around and you go, "Oh, I don't think I can do it today." Like, "No, no, no. You're capable." Get up. "You've got this. What can I do to help?" But 'cause you've got the... You know? Like- Yeah having someone in your corner like that, that's great. Mm. Yeah, that's good. Mm. Just getting it out. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. All right. Quick-fire questions. Let's go. Yeah. So, you ready? I'm excited. I'm ready. All right. Are you gonna take lead? Yeah. All right, I'll go first. Okay. So, we get to know the person behind the mic a little bit- Mm better with 10 questions. We'll fire them off to you really quickly. Okay. We ask you to answer them in a sentence or less. Are you ready to go? Yep. Let's go. All right. Early riser or night owl? Early riser. One piece of tech you couldn't live without. Oh, the Pocket AI. Mm. What's your coffee order? Matcha. Uh, what's the best investment you've ever made? Therapy. I don't know why that would happen. Was that too quick? It was. It was instant, wasn't it? And we were so, there was so much- I need to send this episode to my- Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah psychologist. Yeah. It was just so passionate too. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, yeah. Therapy. Are you an office or work from home person? Both. Mm. Sorry. Oh, hybrid. There's... Yeah. I, I need the- Yeah time by myself, but also interaction. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, what's one book or podcast recommendation? Podcast, Grace Beverly. Grace Beverly? Mm. Yeah. I think it's called Working Hard, Hardly Working. Working Hard, Hardly Working. Mm. Yeah. Okay. Mm. iPhone or Android? iPhone. Sorry. Is that too quick? No. No. Uh, your go-to productivity hack. Can I say Vyvanse? What's that? I have ADHD. Oh. Is that like a, um- It's my prescription medication. We've been talking a lot about that lately. Yeah. Sorry. Is that controversial? No, not at all. We were- Well, what- whatever works, right? Yeah. We're, we're not here to judge, so. That was the first thing that popped into my head. Well, there you go. There you go. All right, what was your first job? Oh, I worked at an IGA when I was 14 and nine months. Mm. Like, to the date. Yeah. I could not wait to work. Wow, cool. Um, if you weren't doing what you're doing now- Mm-hmm what career would you choose? Maybe like a stylist. Ooh, you'd be a great stylist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be fun. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right, last question. So if business truly is a game, Miranda McLennan, what is your definition of winning? Wow. Having fun along the way and doing it with great people. That to me is the definition of success in business. Yeah. Cool. Mm. Mm-hmm. That's great. All righty. Yeah. So where can our listeners find you and your business online? You can find me on Instagram at the moment. There is a website coming. Uh, I just saw the first draft of my branding today, and it's great. Yay. But on Instagram, it's twd.agency, and I would love to have you reach out if you've listened to the episode. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming. Yeah, thank you. This has been so fun. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Um- I'm gonna go for a wine with Steve now. Yeah? Yeah. You can't come either, right? That's okay, we've got a bond. Yeah. Yeah, you, yeah. I get it, I get it, I get it. Yeah. You can be the third wheel, right? So you- I'll, I'll be the third wheel. That's okay, I'll drink alone. I'm like- Not for the first time though, huh? Yeah. All right. Well, um, that is all we've got time for. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to The Business Game and check out the playlist of the level of business that you're currently playing. Because every founder is somewhere on the game board, from zero all the way to $50 billion. Choose your level, and we'll see you next time. Whoa. This is The Business Game